This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci,
educated educators talking education.
Oh, yes, it is busted.
Pencils fully-ledded education talk,
educated educators talking education.
Home Room, yes, it is.
Johnny Lupinacci, my friend, Jess, producer.
What's happening, people?
Hey, Tim, it's good.
How are you doing, man?
So good to be here with both of you.
Start this week off, right, man?
I love the home room sets us up for an awesome week.
And it is bound to be an awesome week.
So glad to be here with you both.
You know, my favorite times in home room,
thinking about that in high school
was that little moment when you could kind of lean over
to your friend and we'll talk a little bit about
how the weekend, particularly Monday morning home room,
that what did you do this weekend?
I'm not going to go into a conversation about what you guys
did this weekend.
However, it was a beautiful fall weekend
where I was playing in the leaves.
Just leave it at that.
I was playing in the leaves.
And Jess, Johnny, they were real leaves,
not artificial leaves either.
I love that.
And you know what's so much play off football,
like we talked about in our Friday night lights
and first down session.
So hopefully if you caught that on on Friday,
get it?
If not, go back and download that podcast
and listen to us talking about eight player football.
And in fact, if you have a comment you'd like to give,
you know, reach out, send us a message to the mailbag,
608557, 8577.
And I'll tell you, Tim, we've been getting some calls.
And so listeners, we appreciate those calls
and we're excited.
We've been building up some special episodes just to address
some of your interests and your comments.
And in fact, have a special plan for social justice education
and more about, does it mean to be activist teachers?
But before we get into that kind of fun stuff,
let's kick off the home room.
What's happening?
What's going on in the world at education?
Well, Tim, I just heard you say
that you were playing in some real genuine leaves,
certainly not artificial leaves.
Right.
Well, there's been some news about some, you know,
artificial intelligence.
Shall we dig in?
Let's dig in.
Okay.
The 74 new survey says US Teachers Colleges
lag on AI training.
In the nearly two years since generative artificial intelligence
burst into public consciousness,
US schools of education have not kept pace
with the rapid changes in the field.
Only a handful of teacher training programs
are moving quickly enough to equipped new K-12 teachers
with a grasp of AI fundamentals.
And fewer still are helping future teachers grapple
with larger issues of ethics
and what students need to know to thrive
in an economy dominated by the technology.
Mm hmm.
So Johnny, a little pop shot at the art places
of occupation, colleges, schools,
and departments of education,
being a little slow on the artificial intelligence uptick.
I will, this is an interesting one
because as the survey and the article in the 74 point out,
this is okay.
We're only two years into the kind of in your face
deluge of artificial intelligence general art of,
you know, the generative large language models.
The reality that teacher colleges,
the schools of education,
those places where people learn to be teachers,
the fact that we're not implementing that
into the curriculum directly,
isn't necessarily surprising.
And I wouldn't take it as to say, therefore,
it's a problem.
I will though wonder,
and this is me, Johnny, the kind of inside look,
I will say from an inside look of the places I've been,
I gotta tell you that a majority of the,
what used to be my colleagues at other places
and some schools of education
that I've been associated with,
there is a real reluctance and even a resistance
to admitting that artificial intelligence
is potentially some form of a pedagogical tool
that we should be showing future teachers
how they need to use it.
And I say that there's a resistance and active resistance.
Why?
I gotta say a lot of people are afraid of it,
but there is still this fear of going,
I don't know what to do in this new world.
And I think that fear needs to be addressed
largely from the standpoint,
how are we in colleges of education
who are semi-comfortable with it?
How are we helping our colleagues get ready for it
and therefore then introducing it into that curriculum?
Those are my initial thoughts, Johnny.
Yeah, Tim, I mean the article doesn't shock me.
Colleges of education,
higher education in general has to keep up with things
and I'll just speak from my own implementation of AI.
It's been a fast moving, right?
And so I'm not speaking as an ed tech researcher.
That's a whole area of study.
A lot of our colleagues focus on is educational technologies.
And I would say by and large,
AI is a big piece of one of the many things they do.
Also looking at like the different VR stuff
that's going on in classrooms
and all the different ways that universally designed learning
can be complemented by educational technologies.
And I would group AI into that.
Like the workshops that I've been able to participate in
over the last year,
the AI technologies have only gotten more advanced
in a really short period of time.
I think we can loop back around
to one of our guest Mark Watkins.
And remember, he commented, he made the comment,
this idea of us being behind.
I mean, we got to take it with a relative grain salt
because AI is moving fast, right?
And I think that's one of the exciting,
but also lockups for people.
You know, there are different kinds of learners
leading learners out there.
And as one of those,
I know I've been able to lean into,
hey, this is happening.
Our students have access to it.
As future teachers,
our future students have all kinds of ways
that they're integrating their day-to-day learning,
whether it's formal or informal with AI technologies.
And Tim, I'm excited about the workshops
I've been able to be a part of.
I want to put a plug out there for AQ, the ACUE, right?
Great organization for college teachers
to link into and learn about best practices
around these kinds of cutting-edge things
like artificial intelligence.
And Tim, so it doesn't surprise me that we'd hear
that it's quote-on-quote behind.
But I'm also optimistic and hopeful
that we're moving past some of the ways
that we've understood AI as a tool for teachers.
And we're moving into the best use of technology.
And I'm going to come back to this.
The best classroom technologies,
the best learning technologies are in the hands of the students.
Right?
It's when the students are engaged
and it's complementing their learning.
It's not replacing having a great teacher
or having an awesome classroom
that you get to be a learner in.
But it's having the tools.
And I'll come back to Tim
if we loop back to our longtime listeners.
We'll remember.
Tim and Johnny, we used to play a lot.
And we used to say, you know,
remember when they introduced advanced calculators?
Yeah, we're a little old
and I'm a math teacher who's been around for a minute.
I remember the debates around like,
can we and should we actually be using
graphing calculators in these algebra courses
and whatnot?
And it wasn't a matter of, should we?
It's how should we?
Right?
And I see this as a similar technology.
So I've been pretty excited.
I've been using AI as a tool in my classroom
for both my elementary school teachers
who are just about to become social studies teachers.
And for my graduate students
who are just about
to be professors and researchers in Ed.
So I've seen it as a great tool,
but there's been a learning curve.
I'm going to say you're using it.
You're using it.
There's nothing systematic essentially.
And I say there probably isn't yet
in colleges, department schools of education
to say that this goes into the curriculum
teaching and learning with AI.
Do want to push though a little bit on you
because talking about Mark Walkins.
I know you want to jump into it too.
I'm not so sure that I think part of the problem
is seeing this as Ed technology
as just another Ed tech
and not seeing it as the potential
for a cultural change
because I don't see AI
as simply the new calculator.
I see this as a total change of the way
we could be approaching teaching and learning
if we had the ability to realize
that this isn't an Ed tech tool.
This is now a new way of iterating
the things we like to know
and then the ability for us
to engage way more of the different learning styles
and as an educator my opportunity
with artificial intelligence
to now reach multiple learners
with different ways and different pedagogies
has never been this.
I don't want it simplest the wrong word
but the opportunity to engage multiple learning styles
by understanding how this technology could be used
in that way.
I see a place for a formal implementation
of teaching and learning AI
particularly in colleges
and schools of education.
It needs to be in there.
It doesn't need to be or Johnny is using
you're using it my colleagues using it
somebody down there's using it.
When is it going to be systematically implemented
into how we prepare future teachers?
That's where I think this article
is really trying to push us to say
should we systematically intentionally
be inserting artificial intelligence
into the curriculum of future teachers?
Well, Tim, I'm going to come back to two things, right?
First, I'm going to say keep drinking the Kool-Aid.
I'm not drinking the Kool-Aid
because I keep just described an educational tool, right?
I think it's a powerful one
but I know Tim that you're on the bus
of hey, this is a cultural shift
this is a massive change
this is going to rewrite
sort of our understanding to teaching and learning
and I'm going to say keep drinking that Kool-Aid
my guy because it's looks like you
we're going to help us better understand
what I'm going to dig in and say
is an educational powerful educational tool
and part of the everyday lives of our students
so I think we're meeting in the middle there
I'm not quite drinking the Kool-Aid yet
but I agree with Tim
this is really part of everyone's life
and I'm also going to clap back a little bit
and say in all of the circles I am in
not only just my own institution
but in peer groups and in learning groups
and especially I'm in a really great learning cohort
right now on AQ
in a creating an inclusive classroom
like how do we learn to teach better?
It's part of the conversation in there
and everyone's sharing that it's starting to surface
as a formal discussion in their colleges
and across campuses.
So now I know in mind there are official statements
coming out of our provost office
on how we should and can be integrating
and engaging with teaching using AI
but also about AI and the tools
as well as as a journal editor
speak a little bit about the academic aspect
on all of the journals
so I'm an editor of the social justice journal
and also work and capacity as editorial board member
and reviewer and an author for several journals
all of them have formal statements
about how they present guidelines
for the use of AI in writing and reviewing
and so I would say Tim
I think again behind putting it in scare quotes
I think we're catching up
but I would say that I am beginning
to see lots of systematic implementation
of how to engage with and say yes it's here
yes it's part of the everyday lives of our students
and of us whether we're leaning into it or not
because there's certainly it's a lot of resistance to it
just like there was with the calculator Tim
just like there was when my chalkboards got replaced
with whiteboards and then the whiteboards
just like when I went from the overhead projector
and my cool sunglasses that I'd put on
to do math problems on the overhead projector
to having a computer that had a projector attached to it
I know this is a much more comfortable
dynamic tool than those things
but I'm grouping it in with those tools my guy
then you go forward okay
maybe a little bit there speaking of the two
learning more very systematically
I know you're in that part two
and I am just beginning my association of college
and university educators course
leveraging AI to develop course resources
just started getting into that
so can't wait to bring some of that learning
very specifically to you know what we do here
because we say on busted pencils
hey we're out here pushing the envelope
and man if you want to learn some of this cutting-edge stuff
you want to come and listen to busted pencils
or you want to call us
leave a message in the mailbag 608
557 8577
hey you know what I challenge you
I want somebody to create a bot
a bot that calls our line and asks us
an artificial intelligence question
do we want that actually posing
I don't know why not
maybe Tim maybe Tim
we need some guidelines here
I was going to say just we need some guidelines
and you know what actually too
I think we have another news story don't we do in fact
so Johnny you were just talking
about how we need some of these more systemic
guidelines for how to use AI
that this is going to be a tool in our classrooms
it's something that we need to know how to use
what the limits are of how we can use it
and how it can be used to enhance learning
not substitute
so our second news story is on this topic
K-12 dive
AI discipline lawsuit
highlights the need for school policies
the US District Court
for the District of Massachusetts
is set to hear a case next week
in which a student's parents are questioning
Hingham Public Schools' discipline of their son
for using artificial intelligence
on a research paper outline and rough draft
Hingham High School's decision to address the use of AI
by the senior by lowering his grade
and issuing a weakened attention
excluded him from the National Honor Society
and then negatively impacted his admissions
to elite universities according to the law school
the high school plaintiffs say did not have
AI policies as they relate to cheating
and plagiarism in their handbook at the time
therefore the school's accusations of cheating
plagiarism and academic misconduct
or dishonesty constituted statements of threats
intimidation and coercion
because quote such arbitrary and capricious sentiment
and quote was not based on any official policy
I got to agree
I agree with this one
go ahead John you jump in first
I mean this is again
one of those
a precedent setting
important deliberations
on how are we
understanding that AI is part of our students' lives
and so if a student has access to these things
and we don't as educators have a clear understanding
or clear policy around what we want you
and don't want you to do
then it's then it's gray area
and so I see both sides of this
and I and I see hopeful outcome
is that we will actually have more policies around that
because do students need to learn how to do draft
and outline and you know right rough drafts
like yeah that's a hard skill
that as someone who teaches writing
I know I want young people to know how to do
that said I also know that
AI can do a really good job at that skill
so I want to I want to acknowledge that
and say the teachers out there
this is why it's important for us to introduce
how you might use AI to do this
but how I want you to know how to do it
also so that you can know whether or not
the AI you're using is doing a good job at this
right and so this is where good teaching
is going to catch up with these
and it's unfortunate that these incidents
are what's going to bring us there
but I think it's really important
and it's the shame that that incident
is now causing some damage
to that young person's future
so I don't agree with that
and I think there's really important rights here
involved in terms of saying like
hey hold on a second
it wasn't clear whether I could
or couldn't use this or how to actually use this tool
and so again that's where we're catching up
you know I'm reminded of a quote that
and I can't I'm drawing a blank on exactly
who said it so I'll butcher it
and I'll just say I'm borrowing this from a really wise person
and then we'll come back around some point to clarify it
but technology moves faster than our human capacity
oftentimes to understand the moral
and ethical implications
or the outcomes of using technologies
and that wasn't a comment talking about social media
you know a TikTok and Twitter and all these things
it's changed the landscape of how information is shared
I see AI as a similar technology
it's changing how information and assignments
are meaningful and designed
and how we learn to do something like
like draft an outline
and a rough draft of a paper
so I would hope teachers out there
you begin to learn how to use AI
you begin to implement that into those skills
and be really clear
and have strong policies that are clear
around when you don't want students to use AI
and how they might appropriately
put to put to use these powerful tools
so you know I think all in all good
was going to come from this
just you know sometimes it's got to be a little bit of a rough situation
to get there
it is a rough situation
and this idea too here is remember
this is a student who was accused of plagiarism
and though we've had many shows on
what does it mean to plagiarize
we all remember whether we were learning to do that
first research paper in high school
you know I was putting my notes on note cards
and learning how to rewrite
reword because the last thing you wanted to do
was ever get caught for plagiarism
well in the age of AI
the opportunity to plagiarize
seems like it could be very easy
and so is using artificial intelligence
of formal plagiarism
not sure we've really answered that question
truly fully yet
and so on this issue
if you're going to accuse of plagiarism
first of all do you have a clear definition
of what it means to you to be plagiarizing
in the new AI world
because it's not that simple
you got to have conversations and discussions
because anytime
and I'll tell you say before AI
making the accusation of plagiarism
academic dishonesty
is a serious serious accusation
that has long term ramifications
on those who are accused
and then if sometimes found guilty
you've got to be sure of this
and so in this moment of AI usage
boy the best thing you can have
are clear policies
and in fact some of the learning
I've been doing on using AI with students
is to develop those policies
also in connection
and in a collective conversation
with your students
because when you do that together
as a team the clarity
then becomes also a learning opportunity
as to how these policies
can be put together
and how we can use them
and so developing this
you know this goes back to the old
some of the classroom management
techniques that I learn way back in the days
develop your policies
in collaboration with your students
because guess what
anybody who participates
in creating the rules
typically they tend to also then apply
and use those rules
man artificial intelligence
teachers colleges
colleges of education
okay Johnny says
it's a calculator
I say hmm it's a culture thing
whatever
we'll figure that out
though we love that
artificial intelligence
plagiarism
let's have clear
policies
Johnny and Jess
home room
thanks for busting pencils
and now for your moment
of sin
everything in history
once it has happened
looks as if it had to happen
exactly that way
we can't imagine any other
but I am convinced of the uncertainty
of history
of the possibility of surprise
of the importance of human action
in changing what looks
unchangeable
what looks
unchangeable
and don't forget to check out
this week's class and session
with Pamela Sackett
on emotion literacy
and keep busting pencils
you