This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci,
educated educators talking education.
Yes, it is busted pencils.
fully-ledded education talk, educated educators talking education.
Friday, first downs, Friday night lights.
Johnny Lupinacci, what's happened to my friend?
Hey, oh, you know what, man, it is full throttle fall.
You know what that means?
Well, I mean, the title of the segment is first downs of Friday nights.
But this is what we live for and falls of Fridays coming up, right?
Because this is the beginning of the best part of football season, in my opinion.
So we're getting into it today.
Tim, we got a special guest.
Let's just jump right into it because if you're listening and you're wondering,
well, what's happening this Friday night and for the next four, at least four Friday nights,
what's happening?
Get our guest.
We got some.
We got a great, great guest.
WXCO and Warsaw, one of civic media stations.
Chad Holmes, the play by play sports.
You name it.
Everything going on.
Chad, welcome to Busted Pencils.
How are you, our friend?
Terrific.
Great to be on the program.
Well, we are absolutely excited to have you on here because we say the segment here,
you know, we started from the standpoint of, well, with your colleague, Jimmy Kuska,
the idea of talking about what goes on, particularly the, we say extra curriculars on this one
to fall Friday nights, lots of sports as Johnny's pointing out.
Well, Friday night football, we know in Wisconsin, we actually know all over this country.
Friday night lights, Friday night football is a huge deal when it comes to public schools.
You've been seeing a lot going on out there in Wisconsin.
We want to chat what's going on, what's happening.
And then also kind of want to get to the whole idea of participation in fall sports, fall
extracurriculars.
I know particularly I'm kind of troubled by the fact Chad that you sent us in a note letting
us know that actually some schools don't have enough students to make a football roster.
So the old 11 is being cut down to like eight.
We're going to get to that not right away, but Chad, what's going on Friday night football in Wisconsin?
Well, it is the night number one of the playoffs.
We've had nine weeks of regular season action and in the state of Wisconsin,
if you're a team that has a conference record of at least 500, you're automatically in.
But also because of the the issues with some teams moving from 11 to eight,
we're seeing that actually a lot more teams that go three and four in their conferences make the playoffs.
In fact, roughly 90% of the teams that go three and four make the conference make the playoffs as well after going below 500 in the conference.
So basically almost 70, 75% of the teams now make it to the playoffs.
And for football is a little different. Most of the other sports and right now we have volleyball.
That's just getting underway with playoffs as well.
Everybody gets in the playoffs. But football has always been a little bit different in terms of qualifying for the postseason.
And we're seeing more teams actually make the playoffs and that kind of leads to week one.
Sometimes having a number of games that can be a little bit lopsided.
And that's one of the issues for this week.
Well, you're talking about that.
That many people making it. I got to take this the kind of jab for this.
So what are you saying? So Friday night football, everybody gets a participation trophy.
I wouldn't go that far. I think that no, actually the team that actually make it deep do earn it.
But at the same time, I do think there's going to have to be a little bit of a re evaluation in terms of the number of divisions in high school football.
We have about seven divisions right now and 32 teams make the playoffs in each of the seven divisions with some of the teams leaving 11 player going to a player perhaps.
You have to think about maybe going to six divisions and thinking of the eight players division as that seventh division.
So I do think that there's going to have to be some re evaluation.
But I think that's something that's very rare when it comes to high school sports is it's very rare to cut down divisions once you've raised them up.
I've been a bit of a voice in the wilderness over the last number of years.
We've seen back in the day we would have four basketball divisions. Now we have five basketball divisions. We've gone to multiple divisions added divisions in volleyball.
We've had added divisions and softball. I don't think that's for the best in terms of the competition. I understand the idea of wanting some of the small schools to be able to compete at a certain level.
But at the same time, when you get to a certain level of the postseason, you want those teams to put on a good show to have your teams out there.
So I think it's it's a bit of a balancing act, but I do think right now we may have to be at the point where you have to kind of reevaluate the number of divisions how many teams you have in there in terms of having.
I think not only the best competition is you get deep, but also avoid and I bet you if you guys look at the scores for this weekend Friday nights games.
You're going to see a lot of scores in the 50 to nothing range that good for anybody.
No, that isn't good. In fact, if you got a problem with that, you can call us drop a message in our mailbag 608 557 8577.
I got to imagine lots of people have thoughts about particularly Friday night football. What's going on? Who makes the playoffs? Who doesn't make the playoffs? All of those things.
Yeah, I had to take a little take a little opportunity there and go wait a minute. Everybody's in for participation.
No, Johnny Lupinacci. What's going on with you on Friday night lights, though, man?
Well, man, you know, it's hockey season over here. It's hockey season everywhere, but college hockey season is full swing and Fridays and Saturdays are game nights all around the country.
And so of course, we've got a hometown rivalry happening here. So we're gearing up for our big first home opener on campus Friday night.
And we've got the hockey season way far out from playoffs. So we're not even thinking about that yet, but you know, I'm also tapped into all the Friday nights.
I got a lot of students, right? We teach teachers a lot of my students become coaches go figure, right?
We have the whole program here where we do, you know, coaching and teaching together in a master's degree.
So the lot of coaches out there chatting with me this week about similar things that Chad's talking about.
Hey, this is my first year playoffs eight, eight person football. And that's really big around the country, especially in our rural communities.
I'm learning more about it. Chad, for our listeners, can you give us a quick rundown of like, they might be like, what is this eight person football thing that you're talking about?
It really is not as different as one would think I remember actually it's been about a decade or so since eight player football began.
I remember watching though, because we used to have what was called a jamboree for a player football.
It was held right here in central Wisconsin, right basically about three minutes away from where I live. So I would go over there and take a look and see what it looked like.
And back at the beginning, it used to be where you'd hand the fastest player the football. He gets to the corner and go all the way.
But the game is really developed over the years. And you're seeing actually some programs that had solid 11 player programs, but just the numbers.
And we've, and I'm sure you guys have talked about it plenty in terms of enrollment numbers.
And that trickles down to athletics when you don't have as many kids are involved in the school.
That means you have to get a higher percentage in this case of the boys to go out and play football.
But over the years, the eight player game, the basic differences in a lot of ways.
When 11 player, you'll have the center, the guards and the tackles in the eight player football.
You have the center and then the guards and then who the tackles would be if you want to have a tight end.
That would be sort of the tight end.
And so basically you lose two of the positions there and then you decide, you know, do you want to have a tight end and a couple of receivers or along those lines.
And the receivers are basically down one or the backfield as well.
But in the end, as you look at the games now, a lot of the same philosophy.
I just think it's a lot harder to slow down.
You see a lot of random and defense of the offense as I think have a bit of an advantage there.
But also, again, I've noticed in terms of eight player that you do have, I think, a lesser interest.
I just think that having the space a little bit tighter, having fewer players on the field.
And normally not as big a players, you do see some of the injury factor go down as well.
So I actually have enjoyed watching eight player football.
In fact, I think if you look at this week, where eight player has only 16 teams in the playoffs.
So they actually run a week less and they have their first round playoff games this week as well.
I actually think, excuse me, I actually think they're going to have a lot more competitive football games on Friday night in the eight player realm than a lot of the 11 player realm, where I think some of the top teams are going to have an easier time against a lot of the lower seed of teams.
Oh, I love it. I love it. Tim and I are eyebrows are going up if you're following if you go back and check this on the YouTube.
But, you know, Chad, we're going to be checking back in with you too about this because eight player football is unique.
And a lot of our teachers out there who are also coaches are becoming, you know, coaches of eight player, big fans of it as well.
So we're going to keep up because I love that you're telling us like there's going to be some good parity in those 16 teams.
And I'll tell you what Chad, the practices I've been to for eight player football, having coached, you know, your traditional large football program.
I will tell you, these kids are in shape. They're they're working hard, man. They really have to move. I mean, I'm like in football, you got to be in shape.
But come on, you know, you can you can cheat that a little bit on the line and different things that it looks different.
But wow, eight player football, they are just flying all over the place nonstop. Those guys are in really great shape.
Oh, real fast. People who say it's not it's not football or not the same. It is.
Oh, it is. It really is. It's the same skills are involved the same amount of teamwork, the same need for game planning and executing it is all there.
And you're so right about the teachers involved in it and something that, you know, I want to point out when you look at these coaches and and and going to high school events generally.
Just how much these teachers work, not just the coaching, but I was doing a volleyball game last week and there were teachers out there serving as lines of serving as scorekeepers serving in so many different ways, the amount of work and they love doing it.
They love being part of it at the same time. They are always asked to and they do it and and the support that they give to the student athlete is truly amazing.
All right. So I got a question. I got to imagine somebody's thinking this though too and right out there listening, who's if I have an eight player team, I'm going to make an assumption that eight player teams are in their own divisions and that 11 player teams are in their divisions.
So tomorrow or tonight, there's not going to be an eight player team show up in an 11 player or because I was just wondering like thinking, you know, and if I would end up playing in an eight player team, though I have to be ready to substitute three people out.
How's that work, Chad, you know, thinking about that, right? I mean, because I could see somebody going. It's like, okay, you know what, we're going, we're going to play bull falls and they only have eight kids.
So three of you are going to sit the bench tonight. It doesn't work like that. No, it is, it is truly an eight player division. And then they have the 11 player division. So you never have any crossover with it.
And again, it really is. I mean, I look at some of the top teams in eight player football. The thing about it is during the 11 player season, we just wrapped up. There's a team here in central Wisconsin that I heard a story with that 14 players because they have some injuries and they have some issues.
You can't play with 14, but if you get you have a lot of teams on the eight player side who have 16, 17, 18, 19, you know, you get into the teens. It's hard to be a 11 player.
But if you have if you want to have a football team and you have, you know, anywhere upwards of close to 20, you still want to have up to 20, but you're right. There's there are separate divisions. And you know, but it's actually funny. Two years ago, there was a school here in central Wisconsin.
And that started practice and they realized, we just we don't have the kids right now.
What they ended up doing is because it was so late. They basically all the schedules are made up. Sometimes though there are issues of teams that may have injuries for fitting or just issues in terms of of having been able to play all the games.
The team actually made a season where they played some 11 player and some eight player.
Okay. I've never seen it like that ever since then or before or since, but it was it was crazy. I don't know how you do it because again, there's different rules as well.
But another question though to him just thinking about this. So I'm a college recruiter to does this disadvantage students on an eight player team, you know, is there a transitional change from going back to 11 players to play in college.
I mean, you know, I'm going to be the person here who goes like up until we knew that we were going to have you on the show chat. I had not heard of eight player football. And so this whole idea, it seems.
It's interesting. And I got to imagine people listening to the show or also there's nobody yet. There's a lot of people out there like me going, wait, what?
And so even thinking about that. So I'm a kid and I'm playing on an eight player team. And I'm awesome.
Am I getting the same looks from colleges as kids playing on 11 player teams?
Yes, I believe. Oh, yes. And no, actually, I think it depends a little bit on position. I think if you're a lineman, it may be a little bit different with the eight player.
But if you're a skill player, if you're a quarterback, if you're a running back, if you're a defensive back, even a linebacker, wide receiver, back about 20 years ago.
And I wish I had the name in front of me, but winner of the Heisman trophy played eight player in high school.
And then went to Colorado and ultimately won the Heisman trophy back in the early part of the century. So the theory is, there's so much competition and big time college football this time.
These are up and even division three here at the WIAC in Wisconsin. These guys will look under every rock. And if you have a talent, they will find you. So I think that the talent always does rise up in nowadays. They look for that talent everywhere.
Well, that's, I mean, Johnny, you're looking at me like, Slacker, what the heck is wrong with you? I'm just making these comments because I could also imagine the parent, potentially, like, so what you said, Chad, so last year, we were an 11 player team.
We find out that we don't have enough and that the school is going to drop down to an eight player team. And I can imagine a parent come, but, but Johnny Lupinachi, my, my, my boy, who's going to be quarterback, wait a minute, you guys can't drop the eight because he's not going to get the same looks to see what if he was playing 11 players.
I mean, 11 player football that, you know, Johnny, that's all I'm talking about. Yeah, I mean, I hear that, you know, and that's also a big thing when we're talking about choosing, choosing schools and where you go to school and have a quality programs.
And Chad alluded to this. If you're a skilled player and your coach out there with, you know, eight player team, you're working on those skills that that that quarterback, like you use, for example, needs in order to be competitive at both eight and 11.
There is a lot of things that recruiters and coaches at the college level are looking for that they can see in a young player who stays healthy, who has a high IQ in the sport as good grades, you know, and has really good coachability and discipline.
Those things, along with those skills, are going to make a huge difference. So it's, I would, I would say it's less likely to be a deal breaker for those kids, whether they play or 11 at those high skill positions.
And I want to say we say high skill. I don't want to take away. I know there's so much skill at the line position. So, so coaches and players out there. Just remember, we recognize you. We're just trying to make an example here. Say for example, that quarterback or that wide receiver, there are so many stories out there of folks who just work hard, who keep their grades up, who stay healthy, who have a high sport IQ, right. And they're there. They're going to go places. They're going to go far in this stuff.
And one thing that Tim said is absolutely true though. There are certain programs that I think should be playing a player, but there's still 11 player, despite the lack of numbers, because there are parents. There's just a sense with that.
That real football is 11 player football. Yeah, that is a discussion. And the most successful eight player teams do have. I think the buy it.
Okay. See, and there you go. So that that's the the ability, because it's a cultural shift to one year being 11 player. And then it's like the whole idea. And this happens in public schools all the time, right. It's it's that shrinking down and recognizing those those numbers. And you typically will hear this in school districts too. It's like, you know, there are enough students here.
We need to emerge school districts to make this to, you know, to make it floatable and people are like, well, wait, who are we then? We're not who we used to be.
You know, so in Friday night football, we were an 11 player team. I could see parents and even kids in a culture of, you know, generations of people going, wait a minute.
This changes who we are then to drop to an eight player team. But I appreciate the conversation here saying like, but it doesn't mean that. In fact, it could mean and really healthy to actually look at this because if you have a team of, let's say, only 14.
The reality of staying at 11 players. Man, that's, you know, talk about really putting those kids at risk and constantly going back and forth. Is that what you're kind of talking about Chad?
Yeah. And I mean, there's so many layers to it. And you have such, even you have a few numbers. Then your forces play two way.
And I talked to a coach just last week and he has a couple of two way players on the team. And he says, well, I want to make sure that they don't play two full games. And that means a full game on offense and a full game on defense.
He wants them to play no more than a game and I have. And in a sense, these are the best players. And sometimes they are able to do that. But in a situation where you have to do it.
All of a sudden, you lose one player that's losing two players because you're losing an offensive player and a defensive player.
I mean, and then of course, there's the cultural aspect. There's all you have to really have deep discussions about this when you have that decision point.
Hmm. Johnny, I just, this is something you actually have familiarity with. I can tell you tell that right there. And I'm kind of the person coming into this going, wow, this is something I just didn't know was actually happening.
Yeah, absolutely. And mostly through the students that I've had that have become high school teachers and coaches and volunteered or refs out there and, you know, around the country. And they right back and they say, hey, we got this really cool thing going on.
Come check it out. And I've been able to check it out and see that exactly like Jets said, well, when I first thought about it, I thought, oh, no, what a devastating thing for those communities and those players.
When I was surprised, I was like, wow, this is great. This is actually giving life to programs that were right on the edge and just not able to be competitive, safe, you know, and have that parity in kind of community building fun around a solid football program because it does take a lot to run football in the eight player shift has enabled so many schools to reinvigorate and have high quality programs.
Well, Chad, man, we had a whole lot we're going to talk about, but this session goes so fast, the segment first downs Friday nights, busted pencils, fully let it education talk, WXC, oh, wasas, own chat homes, civic media, bringing us a little bit of wisdom. In fact, especially for Tim, the idea eight player football.
Next time though, Chad, we really want to give you some homework because we want to have you back on here because to talk about this, is this something that as particularly in small rural schools, you're going to be seeing more of, and if so, how do we potentially help families and students make this transition because I think what you're saying is is that this might be better safer and even a way to go to actually preserve some form of competition that we can do this. So I'd like to have a lot more conversation.
I have a lot more conversations about this because it really would be beneficial to have parents like me to go and say, yeah, this makes sense. This makes sense to me. So Chad Holmes, thank you so much for busting pencils.
My pleasure. Look forward to being back.
Now, for your moment of sin, if we see only the worst, it destroys our capacity to do something. If we remember those times and places, and there are so many where people have behaved magnificently, this gives us the energy to act and at least the possibility of sending this spinning top of a world in a different direction.
Hey, don't forget to check out home room on Monday morning and keep busting pencils with us.
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