This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci,
educated educators talking education.
The pencils fully-ledded education talk,
educated educators talking education,
live from the state street headquarters in Madison, Wisconsin.
Yeah, we were here last night too,
and now I am so excited because Jess,
our producer is live in Madison.
Jess, what do you think of Madison?
Madison's great, but the really, really cool thing was
I got to give you a hug.
Oh my goodness, meeting you for the first time in person.
Ah!
Perfect. It was awesome.
You know, we were talking about that last night.
It's like, yeah, Jess,
and if you've been watching on YouTube,
if you've been watching on Facebook,
if you've been watching on Twitter,
you have been able to see Jess and Johnny.
Johnny's not here tonight.
We said we gave Johnny a break here until Thursday,
but Jess and I have finally met for the first time our producer,
and Jess, it has been,
it's been, actually, I think I'm more excited
than I met you than you were excited that you bent me.
Nah.
Oh, Jess, but welcome, welcome, welcome,
everybody, great for listening, great for tuning in.
Just number thing, number one.
Remind people, we found out today
we're at the Wisconsin Public Education Network Conference,
download the Civic Media app
if you want to make sure you know what's going on.
Absolutely.
You are always going to get excellent, excellent sound quality,
and it is the easiest way to call or text in to join the show.
Exactly, so get that Civic Media app downloaded that way
to busted pencils.
We always point out, too,
in Finland, that's how they listen to busted pencils,
is with the Civic Media app.
People are like, God, he's just making that up.
No, actually, we have listeners in Finland who love our show,
because guess what, in Finland, they have always been
proponents of incredibly powerful public education.
It's busted pencils fully-led education talk.
Educated educators talking education.
Jess, the other great thing, though, too,
is just to remind everybody, we are so incredibly excited
to always announce at the beginning of the show, the end of the show.
Busted pencils is sponsored by Menakwa Brewing Company.
Menakwa Brewing Company, they are absolutely incredible supporters
of public education.
They sued the state of Wisconsin to end that voucher program.
Menakwa Brewing Company is making Wisconsin great.
One beer at a time, check out Menakwa Brewing Company.com
so you can figure out where you can buy their progressive beer,
and actually, all of their progressive supporting items.
T-shirts, coffee mugs, you name it.
That's there.
Special, though.
Welcome.
We've got a guest tonight, Jess, that we have been so lucky.
In fact, I got to meet Dr. Joe Gothard.
I don't just say it.
Dr. Joe Gothard, the new superintendent of Madison Metropolitan School District.
Dr. Gothard and I met years ago when I was originally at Edgewood College
as the dean of the School of Education.
I got introduced to Dr. Gothard as one of Edgewood's most proud alumni,
who's the superintendent at the St. Paul School District in Minnesota.
Got to go up there, meet you, have a great talk.
And I found out, though, in the time that I've now left Madison and gone to Ohio,
all of a sudden, though, you're like, hey, Tim,
do you remember when you went up to see Dr. Gothard?
I was like, yeah, yeah.
We got him in Madison.
Dr. Joe Gothard, welcome to Boston pencils.
How are you?
Thank you, Tim.
Great to see you.
I'm glad to be here.
Really appreciate you coming in.
So this is a homecoming for you.
Explain it.
So sitting there, we've got all kinds of questions.
But homecoming, I mean, truly, you're a Madison born and raised.
Tell us your story.
Yeah, well, it goes back to, yeah, it's being born and raised here.
My five siblings and I went through LVM Senate, Lafayette High School.
And wasn't quite ready for college right after high school.
So I went for a short time and returned to Madison.
And Dr. Mike Mison, a friend and a mentor of mine, encouraged me to apply for an education assistant position
in the Madison metropolitan school district.
So I did.
Okay.
And in 93, I became an E8 Lincoln Elementary School.
And the rest is really history.
I had so many colleagues and mentors, people I looked up to, tapped me on the shoulder,
and pushed me to continue to strive for bettering myself and bettering the community.
I went back to Edward College, my first degree of three, got my bachelor's in secondary education and biology,
Todd and coached at Lafayette High School, became a principal at Tokyo Middle School,
and then back at Lafayette, I had my master's degree by then.
And then President Dan Carey and Edward encouraged me through a relationship we had to start my doctorate work.
Nice.
Had never thought about being a superintendent, never thought about having a doctorate as a one-time college dropout.
And it's really quite amazing that when I think back on all the times I could have turned to the right or the left or given up,
it was this community that helped lift me up and that hasn't been forgotten.
And this homecoming is extra special because of that.
So it's really a homecoming then.
I mean, this is absolutely home for you.
It is.
And I have to say that in 2012, I did apply for the Madison job.
It was a semi-finals that interviewed and did not get it.
And it's probably the best thing that could have happened to me.
It's a force me to go to a new state.
Now, don't tell my, you know, my family that, my kids that age is a 13, you know, 16, 13 and 10 at the time.
But I got to learn a new state, new school districts, you know, new colleagues.
I got to work with boards of education.
I got to take what Madison instilled in me and tested out and learn more in other new places.
I've grown tremendously since that time.
So, yes.
So before Madison, then all of this Madison teaching experience, you know, academic leadership, administrative,
and then you go to St. Paul and you're the superintendent of the St. Paul schools,
which is a huge school, which is a huge school district.
I mean, district is, when we're talking about these big urban schools,
district feels like a word that isn't really encompassing of how big.
I mean, St. Paul, how many students was that?
33, 36,000.
Okay.
When I was there, 70 campuses.
Wow.
And choices, you know, regional and citywide transportation.
So it really is a district that tries to serve everyone everywhere, no matter where, you know, you live.
Yeah.
It's funny.
You say about the moving, you know, so when you went up to St. Paul, then I left Pennsylvania
with an eighth grader and a fifth grader and brought them to Wisconsin.
And yeah, they were convinced that it was the worst thing a father and mother could ever do to their kids.
Yeah.
I think it's worked out.
Our kids are, you know, my wife Mary and I came back.
She just moved last, last week, but our three kids and on 27, 24, 21 of all stayed and settled in the twin cities.
Okay.
For now, that's home for them.
They found that to be home for them.
They did.
Yeah.
So I'm proud of that.
I really am.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
So Joe, right now what's happening is the Wisconsin Public Education Network Summit in Madison these next two days.
And got to start the interview off by letting you know that Jess and I were there today.
We met some Madison teachers and we had one teacher who absolutely, you know, we introduced ourselves as Jess and Tim busted pencils.
You know, we're going to be on the radio tonight.
We're going to be interviewing Dr. Joe Gothard because I'm a Madison school teacher.
He sent an incredibly awesome email this morning.
And we were like, what was this anyway?
He goes, no, no, he goes, he's like, Tim, Jess, you don't understand.
This hasn't happened to me.
And this is somebody who said he's been teaching in Madison school district since 2001.
So whether you know it or not, that email that you sent out to the Madison community communicated to these teachers that there's something different with Dr. Joe Gothard.
Is that true?
Well, that's great.
And first I have to give credit to our communications director Adele Fiedler and her team and also Deputy Superintendent Dr. T. J. McCray.
They have given me lots of excellent counsel on the best way to communicate with our stakeholders.
You know, for my interview on my entry into the district, I think those around me, it's very apparent that the way that I engage might be a little bit different, but it's who I am.
And I think advice I'd give to any leader going into a position whether it's a promotion or a new city or a new district is you have to be yourself.
And you know, part of my test in coming back to Madison is, would I be allowed to be who I am and be successful here?
And it's great to hear that kind of feedback.
But I'll say that an email with promises or declarations, there also has to be follow through, there has to be follow up, there has to be some accountability.
I know we don't always love that word, but it's something I take very seriously.
Well, and I think to you and I know each other, I know your definition of accountability.
We've talked about this when I first interviewed you when you were in superintendent at St. Paul, you were not talking about the accountability of making people in trouble.
You're truly saying it's like people have jobs to do and we're going to hold people to the fact they've got a job description.
There's an accountability.
We think what has happened in the word accountability from a public school standpoint has really taken on its own kind of,
let's say a negative connotation because it really means punishment.
And I know when you hear teachers and parents and students say it's like the accountability, the accountability, which is, well, a lot of them have put that into test and punish.
So maybe another way to say it, if you're going to say what you do, do what you say.
There you go, back it up with what you're going to say.
So what you sent though today was your entry framework, an entry framework.
So this isn't the, you know, look at this.
In fact, this is a 90 day kind of strategic framework.
What is an entry framework?
I don't know because I've never heard of an entry framework.
I've heard of strategic frameworks, strategic design and all that, but an entry framework.
Entry plan, entry framework is a way that you can tell the community what they can expect from you as you're arriving new to a school district in a new position in my case.
And I thought it was important that our students, our staff, our families, our community partners could gauge exactly what I plan to accomplish during, you know, these first 90 days.
The framework is guided by the principles of people, purpose and pride.
I can talk more about that as we continue this conversation.
But I can't illustrate enough the importance of that people aspect of this entry framework.
I will not be successful known and I certainly will not be successful with people understanding each other, understanding me and how we can work together.
So then actually the email, you're a communicator, you're going for relationship person.
Yeah, I love that.
It's busted pencils fully.
Letted education talk, educated educators talking education.
Our guest tonight, Dr. Joe gothard, the new superintendant Madison metropolitan school district.
We're talking to him tonight.
If you want to give us a call 8557524842 is the number.
You say, you know, if Dr. gothard said, if you have questions, give us a call.
We'll take some of the questions.
I'm going to continue to ask you, Joe, as we move into this, we're coming up on that first break.
But yeah, give us a call 8557524842 is the number.
Our guest, the new probably isn't the true.
But this is going to be your first year as the acting superintendent for Madison metropolitan school district.
You know, hopes, dreams, visions.
Those are all the things that we want to know about.
So the fact that you today an email communicated to at least a few teachers like Joe is serious about this communication thing.
Got some more questions, busted pencils.
Stay tuned for more.
You guys love busted pencils music.
How about that?
You know, again, we're trying to bring it, man.
You got it.
Hey, I like MPR, but you know what?
That's not what we are.
We are busted pencils, fully let it education talk.
We are educated educators talking education.
And we are absolutely, you know, indoctrinators of democracy.
That's right here and civic rights and bill of rights and other things.
I just think about that.
It's like, you know, yeah, we talked about that.
It's like if you're against democracy, okay, then maybe you do have a beef with us.
I'll give you that.
But do you really want me to stop advocating democracy?
Like that fair discussion of ideas and voting and things like that.
It's crazy. There's an insanity there that I think just kind of takes us away from what we're supposed to be doing.
It is busted pencils.
And we are here with our guest, bird zipperer, Jess and Tim, all three of us.
We have been at the Wisconsin public education network 10 years summit attending sessions, Jess.
Yes.
You were at a session right away this morning.
What do you think?
What was it about?
Give us your tape.
Okay, so the first session that I went to today was on equity and excellence.
And this is something that we got into yesterday.
When we had Dr. Joe Gothard on, we posed this question to him.
Like, is there potentially sort of this conflict between equity and excellence?
Because it doesn't seem like there should be.
And a lot of people, um, certain ends of a spectrum leaning maybe towards the right.
Sometimes we'll be like, oh, yeah, equity, that's, that's great.
No, but what about test scores?
What about what about kids learning their, their common core curriculum?
And it's like, well, you can do all of that.
You can do all of that.
And this presentation was so much about how you can find the gifts that each child has.
It's not that some students are gifted and talented.
And other students have no gifts and no talents.
Every child has gifts and talents.
And finding that gift, finding that talent, fostering it, nurturing it, and helping it bloom.
And what I really loved, one of the presenters is an astronaut.
No, like an astronaut, I mean, she hasn't been to the International Space Station,
but she did fly in zero G with a science experiment that was designed with her class.
We actually got an interview with her that will be airing either on Friday or on Monday.
It was super, super exciting.
And just, it was really good energy, just to sit and talk about every child's excellence.
And on the other end of the spectrum, Tim, I hear that your first session that you went to was not about excellence.
It was not about excellence, Bert.
Well, your Wisconsin State Reading Association was talking about science of reading.
And I got to say, I'm going to hold this because we got some great guests.
They're going to come on and do a whole show.
But yeah, and we've, you know, we've busted pencils.
We have taken this on multiple times.
You know, this quote, science of reading.
First of all, it's not science.
The science of reading is a marketing scheme.
Right.
And it truly is a push to buy materials that are, quote, aligned with the science of reading.
And there's been a lot of kind of this going.
It's like, well, what can you teach?
What can't you teach?
When it comes to the teaching of reading, I've always been in the camp that I do whatever it takes to help that kid learn to read.
Yes.
If that's letter recognition, then we're going to do letter recognition.
If that's jumping into a book already because they're coming in reading already, they're getting a book.
I, as the teacher, make that determination with the professional knowledge that I have so that that's kind of, that's science.
Yep.
So, you know, here in Wisconsin, though, Act 20 is what it's called, which is this mandate, which we see going across all of the states in the country.
In my home state, now where I'm at in Ohio, truly a draconian effort on the science of reading.
I got to say the one bright spot here in Wisconsin that I found out was that there is a little bit of leeway in Act 20 to not use every prescribed curriculum only.
Did I give you a warning before this industry to jail?
Yeah.
You get a little bit of a warning.
I stood up in my session and said, I'm like, you guys got to understand.
I mean, this is horrendous, but let me tell you how horrendous it is in Ohio.
If you are not using state approved curriculum, you can lose your teaching license.
No kidding.
Seriously.
Wow.
I mean, and that is, is like, you know, that's the insanity.
Ellie Thompson on the phone.
He sure is.
All right, Ellie.
Tom, what's happening, my friend?
Hey, Tom.
Are you on the air?
I'm sorry.
Yeah, yeah.
What's happening?
You're on the air too.
Okay.
I apologize.
First off, we, the people ultimately out of the government, and we must never forget that.
It's like there's just like, you know, a union of democracy in the workplace.
And we need to remember that.
Absolutely.
Again, I just want to caution everybody about whether it is.
Josh Shapiro or whoever.
Let's not demonize.
Let's push.
Because I was a depressed.
And the thing is whether it is a Kamala Harris administration that vice president is going
to have to go along with what the president is saying.
It's her agenda.
It's not his.
Now, I'm the person that said Tim Walls would be very, very good at the Department of Education.
Yes.
But again, I think very, very simply that we need to be educating people each and every day about the fact of how dangerous it is to vote for a third party in this country at the time with Project 2025.
And we really need to have a discussion about this.
You know, Ellie Tom, I mean, when you're talking about that, he said the stakes, so Burton, this is the thing, you're so high, right?
Absolutely.
Like, would, you know, so does the vice presidential pick of Kamala Harris send you to not vote and then potentially go, well, you know, it's like then the other choice is Donald Trump.
Exactly.
Exactly.
You know, so not voting is a vote for Donald Trump.
Absolutely.
And so I know.
So Ellie Tom, we love this.
So Ellie Tom is saying, we want to push.
And so we've been saying, well, we're trying to do here for the Harris campaign because we know they listen to busted pencils all the time.
Because if they want public education, you know, talk, they're going to come to this show because where else would you go?
We're saying, okay, we want to push the Harris campaign to consider the possibility that maybe Josh Shapiro isn't the best choice given that you have a Tim Walls.
Exactly.
And I think, anyway, you go.
No, it's, you know, or an Andy Beshear, right?
They're there.
I'm Mark Kelly, right?
I think too often we are elect people and then we don't push them.
And then we look back and it's like, well, that didn't go well.
So I think pushing from the beginning and of course supporting you because fascism or Harris.
Right.
I mean, that's the other part where you're going to say, okay, wait, the choice is, oh my goodness.
That's a choice.
You know, the choice is democracy or not or not or not.
You know, so you had his busted pencils fully led at education talk.
The number 608 6101126, our special guests tonight, bird zipper, Madison teachers, incorporated retired school counselor,
talking with constant public education network 10 year summit.
Got a lot more to talk about.
Yeah, can't wait.
In fact, we're going to come back and say, bird, what was your favorite session?
More when we get back.
Busted pencils fully, let it education talk, educated educators, talking education.
The numbers 857524842 live from the civic media headquarters on state street in Madison.
Our guest, Dr. Joe gothard, the new superintendent for Madison metropolitan school district has been talking to us now for the first half hour.
Dr. gothard.
So I asked the question, equity, academic achievement.
Are those complimentary terms or are they in conflict?
And I'll give you a, you know, just no conflict.
Tell me a little bit about what you, when you hear academic achievement and then you hear equity.
What's that mean for Dr. Joe gothard as the leader of Madison metropolitan school district?
Well, I thought about answering by saying yes.
And then I thought about saying they can be.
I think that, you know, it's interesting because as a decision maker, as a leader,
if you go out and talk to families, students, community about what they want in their schools,
you might hear something that is in direct conflict of what research might say around equity,
about how you serve students.
And so there's this conflict of do you listen to the people or do you listen to the research?
Do you listen to the history on segregation, for example?
You know, in St. Paul, we created an East African elementary magnet school.
Because our families were telling us they did not feel seen heard and valued in their school.
Therefore, they were leaving.
Right.
So we created a school.
Now that school is open to anyone, but as you can imagine, it's, you know, highly enrolled Somali students and other East African representation there.
And, you know, they are still going to follow the same curriculum.
Of course, they're going to have language and culture part of their social studies and integrated in the rest of their school day.
But I think you can accomplish both.
If students feel seen heard and valued, if students feel safe, if students see staff who look like them.
To me, that is addressing equity.
And by doing so, you can also have high achievement possible and ways that it may not be in other spaces.
Yeah.
And I asked this question now because it has been you, you know, particularly in the last three to four years.
The, what I would say, you know, the attack on diversity, equity, and inclusion as if for some reason that those goals aren't worthy anymore.
You hear people going, you know, schools, it's about academic achievement.
And typically when you hear that question, it's like, wait, so you're talking about test scores, right?
Well, yeah, that's what I'm talking about.
Test scores show that certain kids aren't achieving.
Well, most of us know that, right?
But there's, to me, I get concerned because I feel a renewed emphasis on saying, actually, if we're not addressing academic achievement, we need to not address diversity equity and inclusion because those do exclude somehow a commitment to academic achievement.
So I was kind of asking that question, is it equity, is it inclusion, is it academic achievement?
And you said, yes, the real answer is, it's all of them.
It is, you know, February 2018, a group of student advocates on our Board of Education challenged the board and administration with creating an ethnic studies class.
But part two was making it, making it a graduation requirement.
And of course, the pandemic got in the way, but we fulfilled that in 2020.
And, you know, I'm sorry, 2021, so it became a requirement.
And, you know, I think for the most part, it has been a good gauge in terms of what does equity and achievement mean side by side.
Of course, you have students who are flourishing in it and really enjoyed others can't quite figure it out.
But I think it's been important for the community to come together to understand underrepresented histories in their learning.
Well, because if we're going to actually talk about academic achievement gaps of which we say there are, we have to actually figure out why we have them.
Right. And I think this is, you know, I felt like in pre-2020, we were making lots of inroads at helping people understand that if you're going to be concerned, if you are for some reason only concerned about test scores,
well, if you want to see them go up, we've got to address historic systemic inequities.
And I think one thing that you and your listeners should know is that I was in a community where it's quite the opposite of there being any kind of divide.
It was, you're not doing enough.
There was always that weight on my shoulder of, are you seeing or hearing, are you following through with what our communities need, our diverse communities need.
So quite different from, you know, a lot of my colleagues certainly around the country, but also, you know, right in the, the Metro of Minnesota, you know, like nine miles from my houses where George Floyd was murdered.
If that doesn't open your eyes to what equity means in an institution of learning for pre K through 12th grade students, he was a really difficult and challenging time for us to recalibrate and understand what does equity mean.
Yeah, you were there. I forgot. I mean, that was, I mean, what was it like being a school leader of a large metropolitan school district during that time?
We, you know, we had come off a five day teacher strike and went right into distance learning for the pandemic.
George Floyd was murdered our 31 year old board chair, Marty Shawing, just an incredible among woman, died of COVID all within the first two and a half months of that stretch from March, March on in 2020.
So it was, you know, to have a time where as a school leader, as a member of a school community, we were all, you know, in distance learning or, you know, not allowed to come together, it was challenging.
The first thing you want to do is convene with, with people for comfort for understanding. And it just wasn't possible at that time. So it made it extra challenging. And of course, our community was, you know, there was, there was anger in the streets as well.
Not some, not quite as extensive as Minneapolis, but, you know, right there adjacent to the river. Here our community was also struggling.
Man, Spusted Pencils fully let it education talk, educated educators, tucking education.
What's that? That's that, Jess.
I do know what time it is just democracy and action time. Take it away, Jess.
Today on Busted Pencils, democracy and action value that we are highlighting is justice.
The concept that all people should be treated fairly and equally regardless of where they come from and who they are.
This is a value that we try to highlight every day on Busted Pencils. And Dr. Gothard, you are presenting this so clearly for us right now.
And I have to tell you, we were at the Wisconsin Public Education Networks annual summit warm up day, I suppose. And I asked everyone, what do you believe is the purpose of public education?
And about 90% of them said it had to do with justice. What we are doing here, this is democracy and action.
This is exemplifying the value of justice.
Well, Dr. Gothard, so actually you are our democracy and action.
So you didn't know, you're like, hey, we put sprung that on you, but yeah, justice, right?
You know, it's like back to that moment, too, and that the George Floyd, and you said, you know, and then what came after that, the advocacy around saying this can't stand, this can't happen.
And in fact, at the conference today, we saw a little bit of a timeline and saying, you know, in fact, the activism around equity, discrimination, like we have to get after these things.
And now, though, too to realize that actually there's now been a counter attack back on that movement that is actually kind of framed going, you know, being an advocate for justice, being an advocate for equity, for being an advocate for diversity and inclusion, is somehow a problem.
And I knew that, you know, from the time we met, you know, 10 years ago, and then our interview first, that you were a diversity, equity, inclusion, justice, academic achievement guy.
So I was wondering about this coming into, you know, does the new political framing around DEI?
Do you feel that challenging? Do you feel the need to tone back potentially commitments to diversity, equity, inclusion?
You know, again, I'm kind of asking the same question I did, but if you just continue to help me make more sense of that.
Yeah, no, I, no, I'm not. I don't think so. You know, and again, it's really important to when you're considering taking a new job at this level, understand your board of education and what they are looking for, what they want to support as well.
And I think our seven board members right now, I tell you quite the opposite is true, that we really have to look for ways to make sure that what we're doing is equitable, that it is serving in a, through a justice lens.
And our students are, our students want the same thing. You know, I'll share with you some of the most powerful experiences I've had in the last seven years have been with students at some of the most difficult times.
You know, I kind of took on a really difficult middle school was hearing from staff that it was unsafe. You know, we didn't want to be here. We need more support. So I just started showing up at the school.
And after about the fourth visit, I told the principal, I want to start a group here.
And I don't want you to pick the students who you might think I want to see. See the students running in the halls. See the students that aren't on task. That's what I want to meet with.
And I learned so much through working with this group of young black men, young black boys, I should say, you know, 11, 12, 13 years old, that it changed my perspective on how I want to lead and how I want to center youth voice in the work that I do.
I think many times we see behavior as the many ways that students don't want to engage or don't care about learning in the opposite is quite true.
We just haven't sat down and found the environment where a student feels like they can be comfortable who they are, whether they're homeless, whether they may not have a nuclear family like so many of our families do.
These are all burdens that are that our children bring to school each day. And I think to have somebody in a suit sit down with them, really listen and follow up and follow through and be consistent in their lives.
To me, it was, you know, again, not talking about me, but the practice of equity.
I've tried really hard to break out of the norms of the superintendent and practice in a way that can be influential to the way that I lead and hopefully help others understand too.
So this, then it's reminding me of going back to the email you sent today that again was just seen as such a wonderful thing.
You point a comment here about going throughout this school year, I encourage all of you to continue to ask how are the children.
This is what we're talking about.
And I think we often forget that we really do. And it's taken some really dark times, I should say, for me to understand how important that is.
And what I often find is that when things are going so well, or when there's a really challenging situation in the community or the school, that many times the students are the last voice we go to to ask them, how are you?
How is this impacting you? And what I found by flipping that a little bit is that many times you get perspectives that are vastly different.
And that is not saying that staff or families or community are wrong or right.
It's just saying that you have to, I feel like I have to and I'm compelled to make sure the decisions I'm making, people I'm trying to influence.
It has to be guided in what I'm hearing from our students as well.
So it's something I want to be very intentional about here in Madison.
I mean, the whole idea, how are the children? Because I, you know, you think it's like, well, you're in schools. Of course, we ask that question.
A lot of times, it seems like that question is secondary.
And Tim, here's the thing. I mean, our schools are set up this way. Our students are pushed through the mold of school.
And unfortunately, they're forced to conform. And many times they are, they shed who they are.
Whether it's their race, identity, language, culture, how they were raised, how they feel about where they are as an academic achiever.
And I just think that that is, it's unfortunate that that's what public schools in many places have become.
And we just have to do better in understanding individual students and making sure that our decisions are reflecting each individual.
What you just said, if my co-host, Dr. Johnny Lupinati, who is here right now, he would have really gone in for that question because you kind of laid out, he goes, Tim, we are so good at teaching people how to do school.
We forget that actually maybe school sometimes is the problem and that we're helping people fit a mold that is unnatural.
When it comes to be successful in school, may not have really anything to be successful in life.
Tim, I don't want you to get me in trouble. It's not school people are the problem. It's the system of school.
Right.
Absolutely. Yeah.
I mean, we're still talking about credits hours time served. I mean, we learned during the pandemic, right?
Let's not talk about, you know, how good or bad that was, but we did learn that many students felt felt self determination and self guidance was a way that was better for their own mental health.
I'm not saying that that led to a great breakthroughs, but it was at least a peek into another way for some students that the way that we look at the rigidity of our schedules and our routines that maybe they're not always the best.
No, I remember that too. Yeah, we had lots of people calling and going, hey, some of my students who are now participating and they never participated before.
Our guest, Dr. Joe Gothard, Boston pencils, fully led at education talk. He is the new superintendent of Madison Metropolitan Schools 857524842 is the number last last chance to give Dr. Gothard a call more when we come back.
I need a little room to break.
Yeah, there it is.
Seven dust schools out for summer bird. I don't know if you recognize that song, but that's a remake of Alice Cooper schools out for summer.
Oh, man, this is how we end every show schools out for summer. We come into this band called seven dust.
We did this obviously a metal version. We can hear that. You know, but that's the other part of it. When you're listening to Boston pencils, you get great education, public education, democracy talk from educated educators talk education, but you get the best music around the best bumper music.
Just thank you so much for doing that all the time. My joy and pleasure. You're a genius. You are bringing that in.
Oh, thanks.
Educated educators talking education, busted pencils, fully led at education talk. The numbers 608 6101126. Our guest, bird zipper, Madison teachers, incorporated retired school counselor.
Yes, Tim Bert, all just spent the day at the Wisconsin public education network 10 years summit all the educated educated educators.
There was a lot of education talking going on. There's a lot of people there. There were.
You know, and you say it's it's like because this was the entire state of Wisconsin. You know, and so I talked to a person, you know, maybe this is what you take.
You know, favorite person I talked to I talked to a person who first of all did the well, I'm just a state home mom and it's like stop it right there because what a ridiculous thing my wife did.
No such thing as just no such thing. But she's out in Southwestern Wisconsin rural kick a poo right.
And guess what she's doing. She's rallying her neighbors to support the local public schools. And she made the trip to Madison to show that she's a public school supporter.
We're actually just got her name, got her number. We're going to have her on the show to come in and talk about saying and we're first thing is, no, you're not just.
Drop the just.
No, just nothing. You are a public education advocate and supporter, which makes you a democracy.
It makes you a democracy warrior, an indoctrinated of democracy.
I was thinking about it just before the show. I'm like, okay, is that pushing the boundaries to say that we are the indoctrinated of democracy?
Yeah, sure. Well, try it. You know, why not? You know, one of the other things when Johnny my coast is on, bro, we said that, you know, blue collar scholars.
We try to come at this and go like, sorry, you know, that's just who we are. Johnny grew up in Detroit. I grew up in Pittsburgh.
You know, just blue collar scholars, you know, kind of just chopping it up saying what's going on in more public education.
Foundation of democracy supporters. And yeah, if you, if you're quote against the indoctrination of democracy, you might not like our show.
Right. But I'm not going to apologize for having a pro public education show because it's a pro democracy show.
Sorry, that's what it is. People are like, you do a show like on like bulletin boards and stuff like that or something.
No, no, no.
The number of people today who are like, oh, you've got a, you've got a radio show about it.
Yeah. Like NPR and just, no, not like NPR.
And NPR listeners, no disrespect. No, no respect. We're just not them.
Yeah, we're just not them. And NPR, you do great work the way you do. We didn't need another NPR.
Right. We needed busted pencils and Tim and Jess and Bert and Johnny and the guests we've had Johnny be back soon.
I mean, we have had, you know, Matt Damon's mom, regular appearance on the show. Did you know that?
Wow. And you know who she lived next door to Howard Zin.
Yeah, I love that.
We've actually interviewed her where she's really talked about that growing up.
And in fact, Matt Damon, maybe, you know, threw something in the yard one time and got yelled at by Howard Zin.
I haven't heard that. Sorry.
I have to tell you that one. But actually though, she really talks very powerfully about, you know, growing up, you know, with Howard Zin being their next door neighbor.
And in fact, you know, just she really loved that. But back to the science of reading.
One of the reasons though, we also, you know, we have my segment every month with Matt Damon's mom.
What would Matt Damon's mom say?
She came on last month to talk about science of reading because this three queuing method, which has been.
This is and this is outlawed in Wisconsin. So it's outlawed everywhere.
The idea that you might burnt when I'm looking at a book in your reading words and you might not get that word.
I say, Bert, look at the picture.
All right.
That's a cue.
That's right.
That's illegal now.
No pictures.
No pictures.
No, no, no clues.
No context.
No context.
No context.
Wow.
No meaning.
No, no.
And Dr. Nancy Carson Page, Matt Damon's mom was like, like, I was part of the original research that helped create the three queuing.
It's method because guess what?
We give people multiple tools to learn to read.
And it helps them learn to read.
So this is the craziness where it's like, like, we've outlawed.
We've outlawed a teacher's ability to say, Bert, look at the picture.
The science of making money from reading.
It's like completely.
Yes.
Completely.
Now, who's going to police that, though, too?
My teacher told me to look at the picture today, bomb.
Oh, let's get them written up.
We got to get them on the science of reading police.
This is ridiculous.
Oh, man.
608-610-1126 is the number to call.
If you want to join us, they said our guest, great guest, come in.
Birds, they were of Madison teachers, incorporated school counselor.
We tired right now, but Bert, you know, again, really appreciate you coming into talk.
It's really, it's a delight to be with you today.
It was so good to see you, too, because I haven't, I hadn't seen you in years.
It's been a few years.
Yeah, you know, and I said, because yeah, I, you know, for a listener going like,
like, yeah, I used to live in Wisconsin.
You did some great work at a local university here.
Yeah, I was, I was the dean of school of education at Edgewood College in Madison, you know,
and, um, not there now, but, um, you did great work.
Thank you, really appreciate it.
And I got to meet great people like you when I was here.
So when I ran into you at the conference, I was like, Bert, yes.
Oh, my God, it's Tim.
And then I'm like, I read that first person, the Tim pointed out to me by the way.
We got there and I was like, it was like, and, and, and Jess.
I got to show, because Bert, I'm like, I got a producer.
Yeah, Tim kept showing me off.
I'm on real radio.
I'm like, holy crap, I got a real producer.
I'm like, remember how you used to call you and bug you to be on the show?
And then, like, that, I've got someone in my job now.
And she's good.
And she's much better than me who used to just call bug people.
But I mean, even that, though, too, just pointing out,
civic media, which is now where Busted Pencil is, you know, and again,
for anybody listening out there, yeah, it is across the entire state of Wisconsin,
wherever you can get a radio signal, you can get it.
Speaking of that, man, Bert, here it is.
Check it out.
Bert, I would tell you, right now, you want something to do?
Go to an Aqua Brewing company.
They are a huge sponsor of Busted Pencils.
Love them.
I appreciate them.
Several of their beers in my refrigerator.
Bert Zipper.
Tim, thank you so much.
Thank you so much for Busted Pencils.
Join us tomorrow.
We're on this together.
You