This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci,
educated educators talking education.
The pencils fully-ledded education talk,
educated educators talking education,
live from the state street headquarters in Madison, Wisconsin.
Yeah, we were here last night too,
and now I am so excited because Jess,
our producer is live in Madison.
Jess, what do you think of Madison?
Madison's great, but the really, really cool thing was
I got to give you a hug.
Oh my goodness, meeting you for the first time in person.
Perfect. It was awesome.
We were talking about that last night.
I said, yeah, Jess,
and if you've been watching on YouTube,
if you've been watching on Facebook,
if you've been watching on Twitter,
you have been able to see Jess and Johnny.
Johnny is not here tonight.
We said we gave Johnny a break here until Thursday,
but Jess and I have finally met for the first time our producer,
and Jess, it has been,
it's been, actually, I think I'm more excited
than I met you than you were excited that you bent me.
Nah.
Oh, Jess, but welcome, welcome, welcome.
Everybody, great for listening, great for tuning in.
Just number thing, number one.
Remind people, we found out today
we're at the Wisconsin Public Education Network Conference,
download the Civic Media app
if you want to make sure you know what's going on.
Absolutely.
You are always going to get excellent, excellent sound quality,
and it is the easiest way to call or text in to join the show.
Exactly.
So get that Civic Media app downloaded that way to busted pencils.
We always point out, too,
in Finland, that's how they listen to busted pencils,
is with the Civic Media app.
People are like, God, he's just making that up.
No, actually, we have listeners in Finland who love our show,
because guess what, in Finland, they have always been proponents
of incredibly powerful public education.
It's busted pencils fully-led education talk.
Educated educators talking education.
Jess, the other great thing, though, too,
is just to remind everybody, we are so incredibly excited
to always announce at the beginning of the show, the end of the show.
Busted pencils is sponsored by Menakwa Brewing Company.
Menakwa Brewing Company, they are absolutely incredible supporters
of public education.
They sued the state of Wisconsin to end that voucher program.
Menakwa Brewing Company is making Wisconsin great.
One beer at a time, check out Menakwa Brewing Company.com
so you can figure out where you can buy their progressive beer
and actually all of their progressive supporting items.
T-shirts, coffee mugs, you name it.
That's there.
Special, though.
Welcome.
I gotta say, we've got a guest tonight, Jess,
that we have been so lucky.
In fact, I got to meet Dr. Joe Gothard.
I don't just say it.
Dr. Joe Gothard, the new superintendent of Madison Metropolitan School District.
Dr. Gothard and I met years ago when I was originally at Edgewood College
as the dean of the School of Education.
I got introduced to Dr. Gothard as one of Edgewood's most proud alumni,
who's the superintendent at the St. Paul School District in Minnesota.
Got to go up there, meet you, have a great talk.
And I found out, though, in the time that I've now left Madison and gone to Ohio,
all of a sudden, you're like, hey, Tim,
did you remember when you went up to see Dr. Gothard?
I was like, yeah, yeah.
We got him in Madison.
Dr. Joe Gothard, welcome to Boston, pencils.
How are you?
Thank you, Tim.
Great to see you.
I'm glad to be here.
Really appreciate you coming in.
So this is a homecoming for you.
Explain it.
You know, so sitting there, we've got all kinds of questions.
But homecoming, I mean, truly, you're a Madison born and raised.
Tell us your story.
Yeah, well, it goes back to, yeah, it's being born and raised here.
My five siblings and I went through LVM Senate, Lafayette High School.
And wasn't quite ready for college right after high school.
So I went for a short time and returned to Madison.
And Dr. Mike Mison, a friend and a mentor of mine,
encouraged me to apply for an education assistant position
in the Madison Metropolitan School District.
So I did.
And in 93, I became an E8 Lincoln Elementary School.
And the rest is really history.
I had so many colleagues and mentors, people I looked up to,
tapped me on the shoulder, and pushed me to continue to strive for
bettering myself and bettering the community.
So I went back to Edward College.
My first degree of three got my bachelor's in secondary education
and biology, taught and coached at Lafayette High School,
became a principal at Tokyo Middle School,
and then back at Lafayette.
I had my master's degree by then.
And then President Dan Carey, that's what encouraged me
through relationship we had to start my doctorate work.
I had never thought about being a superintendent,
never thought about having a doctorate as a one-time college dropout.
And it's really quite amazing that when I think back
on all the times I could have turned to the right or the left or given up,
it was this community that helped lift me up,
and that hasn't been forgotten.
And this homecoming is extra special because of that.
So it's really a homecoming then.
I mean, this is absolutely home for you.
It is. And I have to say that in 2012,
I did apply for the Madison job.
I was a semi-finance that interviewed and did not get it.
And it's probably the best thing that could have happened to me.
It's a force me to go to a new state.
Now, don't tell my family that.
My kid's at it.
It is a 13, you know, 16, 13 and 10 at the time.
But I got to learn a new state,
a new school district, you know, new colleagues.
I got to work with boards of education.
I got to take what Madison instilled in me
and tested out and learn more in other new places.
I've grown tremendously since that time.
So, yeah. So before Madison,
then all of this Madison teaching experience,
you know, academic leadership, administrative.
And then you go to St. Paul.
And you're the superintendent of the St. Paul schools,
which is a huge school, which is a huge school district.
I mean, district is, when we're talking about these big urban schools,
district feels like a word that isn't really encompassing of how big.
I mean, St. Paul, how many students was that?
33, 36,000.
Okay.
When I was there, 70 campuses.
Wow.
And choices, you know, regional and citywide transportation.
So it really is a district that tries to serve everyone everywhere,
no matter where, you know, you live.
Yeah.
It's fine.
You say about the moving.
You know, so when you went up to St. Paul,
then I left Pennsylvania with an eighth grader and a fifth grader
and brought them to Wisconsin.
And yeah, they were convinced that it was the worst thing
a father and mother could ever do to their kids.
I think it's worked out.
Our kids are, you know, my wife Mary and I came back.
She just moved last, last week, but our three kids,
and on 27, 24, 21 of us stayed and settled in the Twin Cities.
Okay.
For now, that's home for them.
They found that to be home for them.
They did.
Yeah.
So I'm proud of that.
I really am.
Yeah.
Well, okay.
So Joe, right now what's happening is the Wisconsin Public Education Network Summit
in Madison these next two days.
And got to start the interview off by letting you know that
Jess and I were there today.
We met some Madison teachers and we had one teacher who absolutely,
you know, we introduced ourselves as Jess and Tim busted pencils.
You know, we're going to be on the radio tonight.
We're going to be interviewing Dr. Joe Gothard.
Because I'm a Madison school teacher.
He sent an incredibly awesome email this morning.
And we were like, well, it was, it's an email.
He goes, no, no, he goes, he's like Tim, Jess.
You know, I understand.
This hasn't happened to me.
And this is somebody who said he's been teaching in Madison school district since 2001.
So whether you know it or not, that email that you sent out to the Madison community,
communicated to these teachers that there's something different with Dr. Joe Gothard.
Is that true?
Well, that's great.
And first I have to give credit to our communications director Adele Fiedler and her team
and also Deputy Superintendent Dr. T. James Cray.
They have given me lots of excellent counsel on the best way to communicate with our stakeholders.
You know, for my interview on my entry into the district,
I think those around me, it's very apparent that the way that I engage might be a little bit different.
But it's who I am.
And I think advice I'd give to any leader going into a position whether it's a promotion or a new city or a new district
is you have to be yourself.
And you know, part of my test in coming back to Madison is,
would I be allowed to be who I am and be successful here?
And it's great to hear that kind of feedback.
But I'll say that an email with promises or declarations,
there also has to be follow-through, there has to be follow-up,
there has to be some accountability.
I know we don't always love that word.
But it's something I take very seriously.
Well, and I think to you and I know each other,
I know your definition of accountability.
We've talked about this when I first interviewed you when you were in superintendent at St. Paul.
You were not talking about the accountability of making people in trouble.
You're just really saying it's like people have jobs to do,
and we're going to hold people to the fact they've got a job description.
There's an accountability.
We think what has happened in the word accountability from a public school standpoint
is really taken on its own kind of,
let's say, a negative connotation because it really means punishment.
And I know when you hear teachers and parents and students say it's like the accountability,
the accountability, which is, well, a lot of them have put that into test and punish.
So maybe another way to say it, if you're going to say what you do, do what you say.
There you go.
Back it up with what you're going to say.
So what you sent though today was your entry framework,
an entry framework.
So this isn't the, you know, look at this.
In fact, this is a 90 day kind of strategic framework.
What is an entry framework?
I don't know because I've never heard of an entry framework.
I've heard of strategic frameworks, strategic design and all that, but an entry framework.
Entry plan, entry framework is a way that you can tell the community what they can expect from you
as you're arriving new to a school district in a new position, in my case.
And I thought it was important that our students, our staff, our families,
our community partners could gauge exactly what I plan to accomplish during, you know, these first 90 days.
My framework is guided by the principles of people, purpose and pride.
I can talk more about that as we continue this conversation.
But I can't illustrate enough the importance of that people aspect of this entry framework.
I will not be successful known, and I certainly will not be successful with people understanding each other,
understanding me and how we can work together.
Well, so then actually the email, you're a communicator.
You're going for a relationship person.
Absolutely.
Yeah, I love that.
It's busted pencils, fully-ledded education talk.
Educated educators, talking education, our guest tonight, Dr. Joe Gothard,
the new superintendent, Madison Metropolitan School District.
We're talking to him tonight.
If you want to give us a call 855-752-4842 is the number.
If Dr. Gothard said, if you have questions, give us a call.
We'll take some of the questions.
I got lots of questions here lined up that I'm going to continue to ask you, Joe, as we move into this.
We're coming up on that first break.
But yeah, give us a call 855-752-4842 is the number, our guest, the new.
And new probably isn't the true, but this is going to be your first year as the acting superintendent for Madison Metropolitan School District.
You know, hopes, dreams, visions, those are all the things that we want to know about.
So the fact that you, today, an email communicated to at least a few teachers, like,
Joe is serious about this communication thing.
Got some more questions, busted pencils.
Stay tuned for more.
But it's your best sign on it on your blue.
We bring the doughnut on top of it.
But it's your best sign on it on your blue.
We bring the doughnut on top of it.
We throw a wet crown, a wet crown, a wet crown.
Busted pencils fully, let it education talk, educated educators, talking education.
Truly tonight, Dr. Joe Gothard, talk about an educated, educated, talking education.
Dr. Joe Gothard, so glad to have you on Busted pencils.
And by just tuning in, yeah, Dr. Joe Gothard, it's the new superintendent, Madison Metropolitan School District.
He is here at the state street studio in Madison.
So if you're walking by, you can wave to us.
We'll say hi to you.
We appreciate that.
But we're asking questions.
And so Joe, just the whole entry, at least to some teachers today, he's just sending an email.
They really felt that like, wow, this is uniquely different.
You're a communicator relationships person.
As you're coming in though, question, I mean, what is your vision?
What are your hopes?
What are your dreams?
How do you approach something like a task as being the superintendent of your home, your alma mater?
Well, first I've done this a couple of times now.
So it's the third time that I've been able to apply somewhat of an entry to a new district.
And I have to say new coming back to Madison because I've been very clear to staff around me
and our Board of Education that I do understand some of the past here.
My job now is to really embrace who we are right now, learn and understand.
But then most importantly to enact that into who we want to be in the future.
And that's centered on kids, families, community, you know, people who are interested and invested in MMSD.
And I think to do that, again, the three words that I've been using,
staff out there listening, all these words by now, and if not, they will soon.
But people purpose and pride.
I mean, this work is about people.
And it has to start there.
I mean, I've never been in a successful classroom where students aren't connected to each other, connected to the staff with them.
And that's the same whether it's a hallway or a ball field playing, you know, playing on a team.
Those connections are really important.
And I have to model that.
I have to be about those connections as well.
The purpose we exist for students to succeed, we exist for students to dream about a future,
and then we support them to create the opportunities for that.
And finally, pride.
I love Madison.
I really do.
And when this job became open, my wife and I last summer came to Madison without telling anyone.
Stayed downtown.
And we spent the weekend doing everything we love in Madison.
And on that drive home, it was pretty clear that I was going to apply for the position.
I didn't tell anyone other than her.
Yeah.
But it was the right time.
It was the right time to come back and really take what I've learned over 11 years of being a superintendent
and applied that to a place that I was born and raised in love.
Well now, and you said, you know, the history I had here, I was the dean of the School of Education at Edgewood College in 2013.
So, you know, there, you've got some hopes and dreams of the people of Madison
that potentially say, like, you know, we've heard a lot of leaders come in
and say how they're going to make things different, make things better.
Is that a challenge for you?
Is that challenge accepted?
Or is that going, no, Tim, I know there are some serious expectations.
And in fact, maybe there's been some history where children and families and teachers maybe weren't served in the best way.
How do you, you know, give your sense of that history?
It's definitely challenge accepted.
But I will also, you know, I want to take a collective responsibility for this.
I think we get into trouble when we do a graphic analysis of schools or classrooms.
And we look at who's successful and who isn't.
I think that's a real disservice to the people who are making up, you know, this important work that we do.
So we have to look for themes and ways that we can support one another to address some of the areas that we need to obviously improve.
And, you know, I think that, you know, as a kid growing up on the East side, never, ever seeing myself in this position.
It's one that I will not take for granted.
There are so many community leaders and people who I get to meet with and know well who are also going to be there.
So I know I'm not alone in this work and that can be very empowering.
And I think leaders can get into trouble sometimes when they're not vulnerable to the point of sharing either where they're struggling,
or they don't have an idea, or where they need, you know, some of the help that's necessary to be successful.
Our guest is Dr. Joe Gothard.
He is the Madison Metropolitan School District.
New leader, superintendent, talking to him hopes and dreams, visions for the school district, the kids, the teachers, the community, and born and raised here coming home.
This is a homecoming for Dr. Gothard.
If you want to join the show, give us a call.
You know, the numbers 855-7524-842.
You can call in and ask Dr. Gothard your question 855-7524-842.
The challenge accepted.
Now, point out one of the challenges here has been, though, you've pointed this out, opportunity gaps.
There have been populations of students who have not been served well.
And you'll be the first to admit that.
Absolutely.
So what's Dr. Joe going to do that's different?
So a few things I should have mentioned at the previous question.
But one of the challenges in the community right now is that there are models of population indices for Madison, Dane, County right now that say by 2050, this community is going to grow by 100,000 people.
And that's Madison and just right adjacent to Madison.
And with that is an incredible opportunity for us to innovate and to be innovative.
And I do not want to wait 25 years to say I wish we would have been innovative with that approach.
I think there are incredible demands for what public education needs are, what families desire, what students desire, in a rapidly changing world.
To me, it's the perfect time to say, you know what?
We can hold on to what we've done in the past, but we also have to embrace the opportunity to transform it to change it.
And to make sure that it's relevant and meaningful for who our kids are today.
And more importantly, who they want to become, who they may have the potential to become in the future.
But you know, I think there's maybe a parent or a student out there saying, yeah, but that's great, Dr. Gossard.
But I mean, tell me, how is it going to be better for an English language learning student and an immigrant family that's here?
I mean, what are you, what are you going to do different in 2020?
This community, thank you community supported a 320 million dollar referendum.
The four comprehensive high schools have all received incredible makeovers.
And in those spaces are now places where applied learning can take place across the curriculum.
And I think it's an opportunity for us to look at exactly what classes we're offering, how we can support students in accessing some of these modernized 21st century.
Learning facilities and bring a spark to learning for all students that perhaps wasn't always there.
And language is really important. You're right. And of course, in St. Paul Public School said, you know, I mean, you had this is not new coming into Madison.
So your time in St. Paul was a very diverse population of students, parents, teachers.
And for me, a gift. I mean, you get to understand how culture impacts learning, how language impacts learning.
And to me, it's a it's a wonderful way to build, you know, a global school district, a global society for children to thrive in.
It's busted pencils fully, let it education talk, educated educators, talking education.
And the numbers eight five five seven five two four eight four two.
Our guests tonight, the new superintendent of Madison Metropolitan School District, Dr. Joe Goddard, we're here, you know, sharing some questions, some visions, some dreams, some excitement.
And yeah, we're going to ask them harder questions. In fact, Dr. Goddard, when we come back, you know, kind of phrases. In fact, stay tuned because I'm going to give you this question.
And you can think about it. Dr. Goddard, academic achievement and equity. Are they complimentary or are they in conflict?
I'm going to have Dr. Goddard answer that question. Stay tuned.
That's the pencils fully, let it education talk, educated educators, talking education, the numbers eight five five seven five two four eight four two live from the civic media headquarters on state street in Madison.
Our guest, Dr. Joe Goddard, the new superintendent for Madison Metropolitan School District has been talking to us now for the first half hour.
Dr. Goddard, so I asked the question.
Equity academic achievement. Are those complimentary terms or are they in conflict? And I'll give you a yes, no conflict, but tell me a little bit about what you, when you hear academic achievement and then you hear equity.
What's that mean for Dr. Joe Goddard as the leader of Madison Metropolitan School District?
Well, I thought about answering by saying yes. And then I thought about saying they can be. I think that, you know, it's interesting because as a decision maker as a leader, if you go out and talk to family students, community about what they want in their schools, you might hear something that is in direct conflict of what research might say around equity around how you serve students.
So there's this conflict of do you listen to the people or do you listen to the research? Do you listen to the history on segregation, for example, you know, in St. Paul, we created an East African elementary magnet school.
Because our families were telling us they did not feel seen heard and valued in their school. Therefore, they were leaving. Right. So we created a school. Now that school is open to anyone, but as you can imagine, it's, you know, highly enrolled Somali students and other East African representation there.
And, you know, they are still going to follow the same curriculum. Of course, they're going to have language and culture part of their social studies and integrated in the rest of their school day.
But I think you can accomplish both students feel seen heard and valued if students feel safe if students see staff who look like them.
To me, that is addressing equity and by doing so, you can also have high achievement possible and ways that it may not be in other other spaces.
Yeah. And I asked this question now because it has been you know, particularly in the last three to four years, the, what I would say, you know, the attack on diversity, equity and inclusion as if for some reason that those goals aren't worthy anymore.
You hear people going, you know, schools, it's about academic achievement. And typically when you hear that question, it's like, wait, so you're talking about test scores, right. Well, yeah, that's what I'm talking about. You know, the test scores show that certain kids aren't achieving.
Well, most of us know that, right. But there's, to me, I get concerned because I feel a renewed emphasis on saying, actually, if we're not addressing academic achievement, we need to not address diversity, equity and inclusion because those do exclude somehow a commitment to academic achievement.
So that's why I was kind of asking that question. Is it equity? Is it inclusion? Is it academic achievement? And you said, yes, the answers, the real answers, it's all of them.
It is, you know, February 2018, a group of student advocates on our Board of Education challenged the board and administration with creating an ethnic studies class. But part two was making it, making it a graduation requirement.
And of course, the pandemic got in the way, but we fulfilled that in 2020. And, you know, I'm sorry, 2021. So it became a requirement. And, you know, I think for the most part, it has been a good gauge in terms of what does equity and achievement me side by side.
Of course, you have students who are flourishing in it and really enjoyed others can't quite figure it out. But I think it's been important for the community to come together to understand underrepresented histories in their learning.
Well, because if we're going to actually talk about academic achievement gaps of which we say there are, we have to actually figure out why we have them.
Right. And I think this is, you know, I felt like in pre 2020, we were making lots of inroads at helping people understand that if you're going to be concerned, if you are for some reason only concerned about test scores, well, if you want to see them go up, we've got to address historic systemic inequities.
And I think one thing that you and your listeners should know is that I was in a community where it's quite the opposite of there being any kind of divide, it was you're not doing enough.
There was always that weight on my shoulder of are you seeing are you hearing, are you following through with with what our communities need our diverse communities need.
So quite different from, you know, a lot of my colleagues certainly around the country, but also, you know, right in the, the Metro of Minnesota, you know, like nine miles from my house was where George Floyd was murdered.
Mm hmm. If that doesn't open your eyes to what equity means in an institution of learning for pre K through 12th grade students.
He was a really difficult and challenging time for us to recalibrate and understand what does equity mean.
Yeah, you were there. I forgot. I mean, that was, I mean, what was it like being a school leader of a large metropolitan school district during that time?
You know, we had come off a five day teacher strike and went right into distance learning for the pandemic.
George Floyd was murdered our 31 year old board chair, Marty Schong, just an incredible among woman died of COVID all within the first two and a half months of that stretch from March, March on in 2020.
So it was, you know, to have a time where as a school leader, as a member of a school community, we were all, you know, in distance learning or, you know, not allowed to come together.
It was challenging. The first thing you want to do is convene with, with people for comfort for understanding.
And it just wasn't possible at that time. So it made it extra challenging. And of course, our community was, you know, there was, there was anger in the streets as well.
Not some, not quite as extensive as Minneapolis, but, you know, right there adjacent to the river. Here our community was also struggling.
Man, Spusted Pencils fully let it education talk, educated educators tucking education.
What's that? That's that Jess.
I do know what time it is just democracy and action time. Take it away, Jess.
Today on Busted Pencils, democracy and action value that we are highlighting is justice.
The concept that all people should be treated fairly and equally regardless of where they come from and who they are.
This is a value that we try to highlight every day on Busted Pencils. And Dr. Gothard, you are presenting this so clearly for us right now.
And I have to tell you, we were at the Wisconsin Public Education Networks annual summit warm up day, I suppose.
And I asked everyone, what do you believe is the purpose of public education? And about 90% of them said it had to do with justice.
What we were doing here, this is democracy and action. This is exemplifying the value of justice.
Well, Dr. Gothard, so actually you are our democracy and action.
So you didn't know that you're like, hey, we put sprung that on you, but yeah, justice, right?
You know, it's like back to that moment too, and that the George Floyd, and you said, you know,
and then what came after that, the advocacy around saying this can't stand, this can't happen.
And in fact, at the conference today, we saw a little bit of a timeline and saying, you know, in fact, the activism around equity, discrimination,
like we have to get after these things.
And now, though, too to realize that actually there's now been a counter attack back on that movement that is actually kind of framed going, you know, being an advocate for justice,
being an advocate for equity, for being an advocate for diversity and inclusion is somehow a problem.
And I knew that, you know, from the time we met, you know, 10 years ago, and then our interview first, that you were a diversity equity and inclusion justice academic achievement guy.
So I was wondering about this coming into, you know, does the new political framing around DEI?
Do you feel that challenging? Do you feel the need to tone back potentially commitments to diversity equity inclusion?
You know, again, I'm kind of asking the same question I did, but if you just continue to help me make more sense of that.
Yeah, no, I, no, I'm not. I don't think so. You know, and again, it's really important to when you're considering taking a new job at this level, understand your board of education
and what they are looking for, what they want to support as well.
And I think our seven board members right now, I tell you quite the opposite is true, that we really have to look for ways to make sure that what we're doing is
equitable, that it is serving in a, through a justice lens and our students are students want the same thing.
You know, I'll share with you some of the most powerful experiences I've had in the last seven years have been with students at some of the most difficult times.
You know, I kind of took on a really difficult middle school.
I was hearing from staff that it was unsafe. You know, we didn't want to be here. We need more support.
So I just started showing up at the school. And after about the fourth visit, I, I told the principal, I want to start a group here.
And I don't want you to pick the students who you might think I want to see, see the students running in the halls, see the students that aren't on task.
That's what I want to meet with.
And I learned so much through working with this group of young black men, young black boys, I should say, you know, 11, 12, 13 years old,
that it changed my perspective on how I want to lead and how I want to center youth voice in the work that I do.
I think many times we see behavior as the many ways that students don't want to engage or don't care about learning in the opposite is quite true.
I just haven't sat down and found that the environment where a student feels like they can be comfortable who they are, whether they're homeless, whether they may not have a nuclear family like so many of our families do.
These are all burdens that are that our children bring to school each day.
And I think to have somebody in a suit sit down with them, really listen and follow up and follow through and be consistent in their lives.
I think it was, you know, again, not talking about me, but the practice of equity.
I've tried really hard to break out of the norms of the superintendent and practice in a way that can be influential to the way that I lead and hopefully help others understand too.
So this then it's reminding me of going back to the email you sent today that again was just seen as such a wonderful thing.
You put a comment here about going throughout this school year, I encourage all of you to continue to ask how are the children.
This is what we're talking about, 100%.
And I think we often forget that we really do.
And it's taken some really dark times, I should say, for me to understand how important that is.
And what I often find is that when things are going so well, or when there's a really challenging situation in the community or the school,
that many times the students are the last voice we go to to ask them, how are you? How is this impacting you?
And what I found by flipping that a little bit is that many times you get perspectives that are vastly different.
And that is not saying that staff or families or community are wrong or right.
It's just saying that you have to, I feel like I have to and I'm compelled to make sure the decisions I'm making, people I'm trying to influence.
It has to be guided in what I'm hearing from our students as well.
So it's something I want to be very intentional about here in Madison.
I mean, the whole idea how are the children because I, you know, you think it's like, well, you're in schools.
Of course, we ask that question.
A lot of times it seems like that question is secondary.
And Tim, here's the thing. I mean, our schools are set up this way. Our students are pushed through the mold of school.
And unfortunately, they're forced to conform. And many times they are, they shed who they are, whether it's their race,
identity, language, culture, how they were raised, how they feel about where they are as an academic achiever.
And I just think that that is, it's unfortunate that that's what public schools in many places have become.
And we just have to do better in understanding individual students and making sure that our decisions are reflecting each individual.
Of what you just said, if my co-host, Dr. Johnny Lupinati was here right now, he would have really gone in for that question
because you kind of laid out, he goes, Tim, you know, we are so good at teaching people how to do school.
And we forget that actually maybe school sometimes is the problem.
And that we're helping people fit a mold that is unnatural.
When it comes to be successful in school, may not have really anything to be successful in life.
And Tim, I don't want you to get me in trouble. It's not school people are the problem.
No, it's the system of school.
Right.
Absolutely. Yeah.
And we were still talking about credits hours time served.
I mean, we learned during the pandemic, right, let's not talk about, you know, how good or bad that was.
But we did learn that many students felt felt self determination and self guidance was a way that was better for their own mental health.
And I'm not saying that that led to a great breakthroughs, but it was at least a peek into another way for some students
that the way that we look at the rigidity of our schedules and our routines.
That maybe they're not always the best.
No, I remember that too.
Yeah, we had lots of people calling and going, hey, some of my students who are now participating and they never participated before.
Our guest, Dr. Joe Gothard, Boston pencils, fully-led at education talk.
He is the new superintendent of Madison Metropolitan Schools 8557524842.
Is the number last last chance to give Dr. Gothard a call more when we come back.
Man, I hear that.
Seven-dust guitars coming in, like, I was like, really?
We're really at this point in time already.
Jess, how did this happen?
I know, at the time just melts.
Like I was today, goodness.
Yeah.
Our guest, Dr. Joe Gothard, he is the new superintendent, Madison Metropolitan School District.
He is here in the Civic Media Studios on stage street in Madison.
Busting pencils, as we like to say, talking about this.
Joe, in fact, so here's, you know, I was just telling you during the break, you know, one of the things.
I really appreciate you coming on to talk right here.
Because I think one of the issues that public schools, particularly advocates of public schools, advocates of equity,
is that we don't get the opportunity to hear this type of conversation in the media.
You know, which has always been the goal of busted pencils is to say, you know, I say,
not to make fun of great bullets and boards because there are really good bullets and boards
that are really bad bullets and boards.
But this isn't a show where we're talking about teacher hints, you know, how to say,
we're really trying to have a conversation about democracy and looking at this.
And so we typically, Joe, every night, try to remind people that if you're a public education supporter,
then you're a democracy supporter.
And that without public education, democracy is in trouble.
How does that land on you?
It's a deeper responsibility, but it's also I can't think of anything that brings me more purpose as well.
You know, I get to come back to the city that I grew up in and turn to schools and see amazing staff,
many of which are my former students, by the way, it's been such a tree to connect with them.
But more importantly, I get to learn and ask what's on your mind, how can I support you?
I want you to be great. Your success matters to me.
Whether it's a student or a staff, first year staff or a veteran staff.
I want them to feel supported, seen heard and valued by their superintendent.
Wow.
So how do you address that then, too, which sounds like a very individual message in a huge metropolitan urban school district?
How do you get this relationship that sounds like it's so important to you that potential one-on-one?
How's that going to work for you in this big district?
It's hard. I do have a lot of people protecting my time, which I get and we have an important referendum coming up in November, too.
So a lot of my outreach engagement has been pretty scripted right now in terms of the work that we're doing.
But I will say that it is not uncommon for me to show up at schools and without a camera crew or anything and just ask staff, what's on your mind?
Yeah. You know what a volunteer meeting and, you know, I can share with you that there have been things that I've heard in meetings like that,
where I've been able to go back to the district office and make immediate change.
I didn't know. And certainly didn't know how it was impacting how decision or how a policy was impacting, you know, a staff member in the school.
And my job is to remove barriers, the definition of equity, remove barriers.
Nice.
All right. So here's a question. You know this as well as I do teachers.
We can't we have a teacher shortage, you know, and whether it's here Wisconsin, whether it's in Madison, whether it was in St. Paul, the whole idea,
we can't get people to go into teaching. We can't get teachers to stay in the classroom.
What do you say to the teachers now in Madison school district that are saying, you know, Tim, in fact, we know that those are our number one listeners,
and they call in and go like, I don't think I can do this job anymore.
Wonder how that whole recognition of going like teachers are feeling like they're the last people seen in these days.
How does Dr. Joe Gothard address the teacher who's saying, what are you going to do for me?
It's hard work. And I'll tell you a few ways I've done it that I've learned a lot, right? Self-awareness is a big practice of mine that I'm trying to always be better at.
So I've come out and I've been the cheerleader before, you know, where you're just sending out positive messages, affirmations.
But then I got back an email saying, you know, you are using toxic positivity towards us.
And I'd never heard that term. Yeah, I googled it, of course. And I learned that, yeah, there's a psychological impact of toxic positivity.
It's made me think a lot about being real and being authentic is very different than being at least perceived to kind of being polyannish and just kind of disregarding the truth or what's really happened.
I think it sounds, you know, what we hear in the mental health field is, I mean, the last thing a person suffering from anxiety and depression is to see, like, look, what happens when I think positively, it's like, that doesn't help me.
In fact, it may even make me feel worse. So think about this as a leader. I didn't take that as somebody who was saying something bad about me.
I took it as a chance to learn and to grow. I took it as a chance to say, what does this mean? And they're right.
You know, I need to think of different ways to communicate. Yeah, because I appreciate you as my leader being all positive, Dr. Joe.
But, you know, as a fifth grade classroom teacher here right now, I've got students who are coming into school. They haven't been, they haven't eaten. Some of them are homeless.
The parents are participating as much as they can. I don't have enough time in the day to do this. And now I keep hearing on news that everybody hates teachers.
You know, so your positivity, sorry, it's right, ain't helping.
And we're, you know, we're at about 220 staff, all classifications across the district short right now, about 100 teachers still.
Fairies spread out. And one way you can help is that tomorrow we have a job fair at the Holtsman Learning Center, 330 to 730.
And we'll have our HR staff, their mobile will be offering contracts. And, and, you know, people can walk away with a job if they have the right qualifications and we do. That's a good match.
Well, you went exactly where I was going to go. So as you know, kind of closing up here, where should people go? Should they contact you? How do they know about what's happening?
M-M-S-D dot org, you know, our website is great. Yes, it can be a little difficult to navigate at times. We have a lot of information.
But again, the Holtsman Learning Center, there's an M-M-S-D job fair. You should be able to find a button right on our website.
But all are welcome. We'd prefer our appreciative people at RSVP in some ways, just so we can be sure that we have a contact, but we will also accept walkings.
It's busted pencils fully. Let it education talk. I guess Dr. Joe gothard. Dr. Joe gothard. Thank you so much for busting pencils.
You're welcome. I was shocked to hear from you and never in town. And this worked out great. And let me just say to any Madison metropolitan school district staff teachers, parents that are listening.
I can't wait to continue to work with you. And I'm just grateful for your commitment and engagement in making this the best school district in the state of Wisconsin. Thank you.
Man, love that. I tell you what you should do now, though, is head over to the Monaco Brewing Room on East, you know, East High School, because they're a sponsor of busted pencils.
And they do incredibly awesome progressive beer and they're a huge supporter of public schools. Dr. Joe gothard again. Thanks for busting pencils. See you all tomorrow night.
That's more night.
You