This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Luponacci, educated educators talking
education.
Oh yes it is, Tim and Johnny Busted Pencils fully-ledded education talk, educated educators
talking education long weekend back, Johnny Luponacci.
How are you, my friend, celebrating the 4th?
First of all, put up your hands.
I want to see if all your fingers are okay.
Nice.
Oh yeah, I don't do fireworks, Tim.
I mean, I enjoy watching them a couple of nights went to a ballgame on Friday night, saw
some fireworks after that.
Of course, we had barbecue and hang out with friends and family, and there were fireworks
on the 4th, and we talked all week last week about being a patriot and about supporting
democracy, and lessons that Timothy Snyder gave us in terms of 20 things we can learn from
the 21st century about avoiding tyranny, tyranny, tyranny, man, come on, we're trying to
get you right on that one.
So it was a great weekend, here we are, coming off of that, and it's Monday, it's great
to be with you.
So let's go.
Yeah, well it's good.
You know, I mean, first of all, though, too, Johnny, it's always great because busted
pencils is sponsored by the Monaco Brewing Company who sued the state of Wisconsin to end
that crazy, painful, hurtful voucher system that hurts public schools.
Monaco Brewing Company is making Wisconsin great again, one beer at a time.
Check out Monaco Brewing Company.com to see where you can buy their progressive beer.
And over the weekend, Johnny, you know, reminiscing, I started going through, I don't know, do you
ever get hooked into like a YouTube kind of like tunnel where you're like, I got to see
the next video, I got to see the next video, I got to see the next, okay, you're looking
at me like, no, it's never happened.
I know what you're talking about.
I avoid it because I don't like to get pulled into it, but it's him, I do this with students,
we do the how many YouTube videos until the algorithm has us believing that there could
be a flat earth, right?
So just to build an understanding around how misinformation and disinformation exists
and to understand that sometimes like the parents or the families of the children that
are coming to our classrooms have been informed by misinformation and really how easy it
is to sort of build empathy around, hey, before you judge and you say, hey, that idiot that
believes this, understand that the world we're in right now, we're only a few clicks away
from a whole pathway, a whole algorithm that feeds you a lot of videos.
So I try to avoid it in my life, but I do know what exists.
Okay, but I didn't go down to that like that, like that whole, I just like, I get in there
and something plays off together and I was in there looking at save our schools because
we had interviewed Beth Lewis from save our schools Arizona and up pops a remembering, remember
when and oh, well, you know what though, Jess, can you hit play on that real quick just
so Johnny can hear what I was listening to?
My mom was a professor of early childhood education and from the time I was in kindergarten
as she said all the way through my high school graduation, I attended public schools and
I would not trade that education and that experience for anything.
Did you get who that was there, Johnny Lupinagy?
I think I know, Tim.
I think I know and I love it.
I love it.
So tell me more about this.
That was Matt Damon, Matt Damon, save our schools 2011 rally and you know, popped up
in my head.
I wonder, you know, if we had Matt Damon's mom, I wonder what Matt Damon's mom would
say to Matt now 12 years later.
Wait, there she is, Matt Damon's mom Dr. Nancy Carson Page, how are you?
I'm good.
Great to be here and it's oh, it's boy, is it a reminiscent to listen to that talk
and think about that amazing March in 2011?
It was incredible.
It just made me remember how unified we were around that and I mean, Matt, he just delivered
six minutes of just pure inspiration.
But you know, it is now.
It's over 10 years later and we've said it.
Nancy, let me where are we at this point?
And if you were going to say something to Matt, you know, now if he was going to do this
speech again, would you give him new advice?
What would you say to Matt?
Well, one thing I just want to say is I have a lot of appreciation hearing that I actually
listened to that talk again.
And you know, he, it is all about public education, the value of public education.
He says, I would not be the person I am today.
If I had not had that education that fostered my creativity and my critical thinking.
And it's made me who I am and it's a lot of why I have success in the work that I do.
And I and he believes that through somebody at the March said to me, did you write that
for him or did he write it?
And I'm like, are you kidding?
He called me up.
I was sitting on a bench there at American University, he read me the whole speech.
I got tears in my eyes, I'm like, I'm so happy.
This is what you feel, you know, but, you know, things have changed, they have changed
so much since then and they haven't, okay?
At the deeper level, the conservative education movement, which has had an increasing stranglehold
on many aspects of education, has gained even a stronger foothold.
That's the reality.
If you look at the voucher, so that have increased in many states, the charter schools,
increasing enrollments, the defunding of public education, and, you know,
the lining up with the culture wars, I think, has really fueled them too.
Because a lot of these voucher programs are starting because the conservative parents
don't want their kids to hear about racial justice, LGBTQ issues and so forth.
So, you know, we're dealing with a very, a more difficult situation than before
because in the beginning, when we had that SOS movement, we were unified, actually,
tens of thousands of people were there, mostly teachers, but parents and students also,
who were feeling very strongly about against standardized testing as the driver of education.
Right.
And pro public schools, that was sort of what was tying everybody together then.
Right.
And so now, these things have become somewhat sadly normalized, standardized tests have become
in many people's minds the way to assess the value of quality of education anywhere.
So, you know, maybe someday we'll talk about that more because Matt says in that talk
that all the things he feels he learned that characterized his being could not be tested.
Exactly.
And that, yeah.
What I just thought about that too, because I mean, that's what brought me to that fight too,
is I mean, you know, this is how you and I'm Nancy, we met.
I mean, I had opted my son out of fifth grade, right then got invited to that tour
met you behind the scenes thereafter, Matt's speech.
And though, you know, here we are all these years later.
And you say, I listened to that and I get excited.
And I was like, boy, we were only taking on standardized testing right then.
And now as you kind of lay it out, it's like, okay, I'm not sure we won on that.
Maybe, maybe, maybe not, but because you said it's become normalized, I think it's fallen
out of view because the attacks now are so much more incredibly awful.
Yeah, they're awful.
And they satisfy a certain element of conservatism that, you know, is as you know,
you know, the anti-CRT people and the anti, all of the culture issues that upset them
and that they want to parents to have control over.
So it's a very difficult situation.
And I still think the message is that we have to organize that, you know, there we were
organizing on a national level and it was really thrilling to come together with that
huge number of people.
But as we slog on now, state by state, because now there are different legislative mandates
in different states.
So you have Louisiana with the Ten Commandments on the wall and you got Arizona and a lot
of other states with ramped up voucher programs and you've got online learning that we weren't
seeing as much then, how many kids are just at home looking at a screen and getting an
education.
Right.
It's a very different climate.
So how do we approach it as organizers?
I was thinking this in Johnny, let you jump in too, but what we've been saying now is
just to really recognize and I like the way you pointed that out.
I'm sure Johnny did this kind of state by state, but reminding people though the stakes,
at the time we were saying high stakes testing, the stakes now are your local democracy.
And okay, so that, that, that to me is, is that the organizing message to fight for democracy
in Louisiana might be a little bit different than fighting for democracy in Oklahoma.
It might be a little bit different in Wisconsin, but that public schools and democracy is
what's at stake.
And I think it's good if we hold those two ideas in mind that there's a unifying set of
principles around democratic schools that we're fighting for.
But the impediments to that are manifesting in a lot of different ways, even signs of
reading though.
I talked with you about last month is another example or curriculum control and punishing
teachers for talking about racial justice or racial history or, or gender issues.
You know, so we're seeing it pop up with a lot of different faces that can confuse people
and make them think these are isolated issues and they're not.
They're all connected to one big issue of control and dismantling of public education.
Well, yeah, Tim, I mean, I agree with this wholeheartedly, right?
Public education is a bedrock of a strong democracy.
It's where we learn to be democratic citizens is where we learn to put democracy to action.
So I couldn't agree more.
And what a, what a polarized moment.
We are in not only with the cultural wars with, with landing too on, do we really value
the importance of public education?
And I think the three of us agree and we're not alone in this.
If we value democracy, then we value how we learn to be democratic citizens and we need
to invest and really, you know, really support public education.
And that's, that's key.
You can't have one without the other.
I'm 100% with you.
We have to support it and we also have to support the kind of education that we know is going
to cultivate thinking participatory citizenry and it's not going to be the controlled one
that keeps people from knowing are, are genuine truthful, howards in people's history.
Right.
And, and it's not going to be the one that controls teachers and doesn't let them teach with
all the creativity and inspiration that they bring to the job and the, the forces are trying
to do that.
They're trying to water down the system to an extent that there isn't any more individual
free, independent and a strong free thinking.
Wow.
Matt Damon's mom, Dr. Nancy Carlson, Paige, holy crap.
So now you got to, we're going to put that down.
You can send that to Matt because the question was, what would Nancy say to Matt Damon now
all these years later, Dr. Nancy Carlson, Paige, we, I'll send it to you.
Awesome.
We love busting pants.
Thank you all the time.
Thank you so much.
One, why do I have a minute to say something because I want to say 10 seconds.
I love busting pencils because you are helping the people who are working state by state
to know what other people are doing and to organize at a bigger level or at least understand
that they're all connected.
Thank you.
Oh, yeah.
Buster pencils fully led to education taught, educated educators talking, education in the
numbers, eight, five, five, seven, five, two, four, eight, four, two, yeah, you can give
us a call, jump in there.
Dr. Nancy Carlson, Paige, Matt Damon's mom, first statement, always love busting pencils
with her, Johnny.
We've got a great guest tonight and I love the way that the guest here shows up on the
show.
Dr. Mike Moore, I'm just going to introduce him right away and be like, Mike.
So the story of how Dr. Mike Moore comes on to the show.
So you had listened to the interview we did with Jonathan Gerkow about publicization.
Correct.
Correct.
Then got me to get to the AQ, the national teaching and college conference.
And I'm standing there in the between sessions, looking at stuff and I look at you and you
look at me and we make these eyes and you come over and go, Hey, do you mind if I sit here
and we actually were standing there and each dinner together and then you went, wait.
And I said, yeah, that's who I, how do you remember this happening, Mike?
That's exactly right.
I was doing some homework for my podcast with Jonathan and I listened to your podcast
and then I saw that you were going to be at any GTC.
And I said, this is the one guy that I have to find and then how am I going to find
this guy?
There's 500 people here.
And I was looking for a place to stand to eat and then there was this guy just standing
there.
And I was like, you know, what is his name?
And I look your name tag.
I can't believe it.
The one guy that I've been trying to find in this whole place is standing right here.
It was just a miraculous story.
We were destined to meet.
Yeah.
We were.
So Mike, I appreciate that story.
So Johnny, look at that, man.
We get out there.
I love it.
I love it.
And say that's one of the great things about the connections we make when we go to conferences
like that.
You say people are listening and I just got to be, you know, I was absolutely flattered
because Mike dropped some serious praise on busted pencils.
And I was just like, whoa, dude, all right.
You're coming on the show, man, but okay.
So Mike, you though kind of come at this, Dr. Mike, we want to put this forward just
I want to set this up a little bit because we were talking about this.
You know, how, how you and I got to the show is, but I'm going to say remember when people
listen or you're out there, remember when you went to college and yeah, got your course
schedule and you went, oh, I'm taking loop and notches, social education course.
And I have to buy these five books or these three books and you go to the bookstore and
get them or you don't get them.
A lot of people have that memory of getting, that's how they got their books with some
kind of thing like that.
Mike, you brought to my attention of this whole idea of potentially accessing course materials
and how important actually getting the access to course materials is today, particularly
not that it wasn't important back in the day, but that really when we're looking at the
success of college students, their access to materials can be the difference between
whether they're going to be successful in college or not.
And the whole accessing course materials is in and of itself a little bit of a contested
space.
Is that a way to say it or, or is there an advocacy?
I mean, tell me about Mike Moore's vision of how students would get their college materials.
Sir, that's a great lead and thank you.
And we think about course materials for like, it's just a textbook, like, what is it?
What does it matter?
And through my work in the course material space and my research on course materials,
we've started to understand that a textbook is not just a textbook.
It is literally the key to success in higher education.
It is how we get in the door to a class.
It's the thing that can prevent us from getting into a class because we can't afford
the material.
So textbooks are essential to a student's success in higher education.
And the cost of course materials over the last, I don't know, 50 years has been out of
control.
And we've seen it just rise.
You know, there's nothing faster, growing faster in costs than textbooks other than
I think health care, right?
So there's been the introductions of a couple of models in the last, I don't know, decade
or so where there are affordable access programs.
There are programs that are aimed to reduce the cost of and increase access to course materials.
So in these models, students simply register for their course and their course materials
are provided to them on or before the first day of class.
So there's no figuring out what I need.
I don't have to go to the bookstore or not to search the internet.
I don't have to figure out where they're located if they're in the bookstore or the internet
or if I have the money to buy them because it's automatically charged to my bursar account.
So it allows us to begin day one with materials.
And my research and the research of a couple others are showing us that simply having access
to materials can impact whether or not we will be successful in the classroom.
Hmm.
So Johnny Lupinachi, successful access class materials.
I'm going to say you're a little bit more close to this because I haven't really had
to put this forward because I've been in the administrative ranks for quite a few years,
and so my course materials, what do you want to say?
My understanding of it has been a bit stymied.
Well, yeah, Tim, I mean, I think it's huge when we get feedback from our students
pretty consistently on what works and what doesn't work for them as learners.
It's always a good thing.
And I can safely say over my two decades or so of teaching college students
that consistently, and it's gotten a little better as resources like Mike's talking
about have become more familiar and they're still not very familiar or frequent with instructors,
but consistently students have said a large barrier to their learning is access to the course materials.
And I know if you're a listener out there thinking like, how can that be?
It's just one, the cost of education has gotten so high.
So many of our students are having to make choices between where every dollar goes.
And the cost of resources for your classes, if you're taking a full load of courses,
you can be spending a couple grand in just textbooks and materials.
And I know there's been some regulation put on like how much a particular course can require,
but the cost of like there's almost been a hidden cost for years
that the students eat on top of their tuition is making sure they have the right books for class.
And so what we also know is technology has changed a ton.
There are all kinds of ways that we can get quality instructional materials accessible to our students
for little to no cost to the student or additional cost to the students.
There are things like course fees that can cover great resources.
There are ways our libraries can invest better to support our instruction,
but that's consistently been something my students for 20 years have regularly said.
And about 15 years ago, I started making a shift.
And it was noted, I got more engagement from students when I had accessible materials.
When I learned technologies that helped me bring everything together to one central location,
reduce the cost of the point of access, but nothing out there in the world is free.
Nothing quality is free.
So helping be really transparent about what costs us what and how we get those materials.
It's been huge, it's been a huge help.
And I'll say, you know, it's been important to figure out.
And we're talking all the time about the quality of instruction that every student deserves at every level.
And for college professors, it's not as easy as just saying,
hey, I'm picking the best readings.
Here they are, go get them, find them, bring them to class.
There's a whole lot that happens in between there.
So love the work that Dr. Mike Moore is doing.
Love that we get to keep talking about it here tonight on bus depensals.
Listen, if you want to join the conversation, you know, come on, come on the call with the call in.
Talk to Mike Moore, Tim and I, 855-752-4842.
Bus some pencils with us when we get back.
Busted pencils fully let it education talk, educated educators, talking education, guest
is Dr. Mike Moore.
Course materials, I'll give you this, course materials expert access to the whole idea.
You're in college, you sign up for a course and typically with that course you have to get a book.
Well, maybe not even a book, but all kinds of course materials.
And Mike are meeting that we had in Minneapolis a couple of weeks ago,
just really brought this home to me that's saying that, you know,
when students don't have access to those books, how challenging, challenging, Johnny, right?
I mean, yeah, it's frustrating.
I talk to students all the time at a variety of different, you know, types of institutions for learning.
And it's common.
They're just like, oh, what's one of the most frustrating things?
And they're like, when the course materials aren't accessible and it's across board.
And I said, what's an example of that?
And so, well, has in this one art history class, you know,
the book wasn't the right book.
And they gave this, you know, this, this PDF out to us, like a barely read it.
And, you know, it was just hard to follow along.
I just wanted to buy a book, but there wasn't a book.
And then we had discussions and it was just all, it was more frustrating than the difficulty of the learning.
And it was just, it was just in the way the whole time.
And that, that kind of story is something I hear over and over.
So I love this work, Dr. Mike Moore.
Thanks for being here, man.
Thanks for having me here, guys.
It's great.
So, so I'm like, though, when you're talking about this, you know, access.
And I'm just going to read a quote for you course materials interventions.
And we want you to define what course materials interventions are.
Are not just about making course materials more affordable.
They're about creating an educational environment where every student has an equal opportunity to succeed.
Regardless of their socioeconomic and cultural backgrounds.
Mike, that draws the question.
Course materials interventions.
What's your talking about there, my friend?
You know, there is something.
The models that have been put in place in the last 10 years are disrupting.
They're, they're stepping into the traditional what I call find and acquire again, figure out what you need.
Where it's located.
And if you have the resources to buy it, they're actively disrupting that to ensure that students have access.
They're removing students from the course materials acquisition process.
And you can just go to class and be prepared.
It doesn't matter if you have money.
It doesn't matter if you have the cultural capital necessary from your family or from other experienced experiences.
You can just go to class.
I worked in the books industry for 15 years on the front lines of students buying their course materials.
I've been there holding the hand of the parent or the student who has to make the decision.
Do I eat?
Do I pay rent?
Do I pay child care?
Do I buy my textbooks?
Yeah.
These intervention models are removing that from the equation.
And students can just go to class ready to learn.
You know, I have my favorite quote is from Leicester Frank Ward as American Polymath in 1800s.
He said, the thing that is rare is opportunity, not ability.
And that's how I look at these intervention models.
Students have the ability to do great work and be successful.
They don't have the opportunity to do it.
And these are removing institutional structural barriers.
So students can demonstrate that ability in the classroom.
You know, we know from the literature that course materials are preventing students from pursuing their American dream.
Someone wants to be an engineer.
I go to the bookstore and the engineering books $300.
But I look just to the left and there's an English book.
It's $5.
I reach my pocket or look at my bank account.
I got 15 bucks in my bank account.
What am I going to do?
I can afford my English book.
So why don't I just switch majors to be an English major without thinking about what the future implications.
So these models are increasing access in reducing the cost of course.
So students can choose to go into these majors that fulfill their dream of being whatever it is that they want to be.
Johnny.
Well, yeah, man, there's nothing I hate more.
And listener, if you, if you agree, you can call in and, you know, and, and, and echo your, your experience or your thoughts 85752442.
But man, I hate hidden fees.
I hate it.
Imagine if you go to the grocery store and you're picking out, you know, what you're going to, what you're going to, you know, buy for food that week.
You get to the cash register and you find out there's also a service fee.
There's also all kinds of other fees.
You know, this is similar.
Like, well, if I'm picking a major and I'm signing up for courses that I likely have to take.
Then I find out, guess what?
There's another six, seven hundred dollars added on to that.
You know, those are unexpected hidden fees that shouldn't be the experience of any student.
I love what you're saying.
Dr. Mike, like you should be able to come to class and have the opportunity to learn.
And especially with the technologies at our hands.
Right now, you know, institutions of learning and professors and instructors, everyone out there.
Like, there are really good tools.
And I'm guessing Mike can point us towards some of those really good tools.
Not only in this segment, but you can check out his stuff and we'll drop links into our description.
So if you're catching this on the podcast, you can get more info.
But there is nothing more frustrating to me than hidden costs.
And again, it's a huge barrier.
We know that it is.
What?
How's that noise?
It's, it's true.
It's the bell rings.
Tim, you know what that means?
Oh, okay.
Here on bus depensals.
We do a segment called democracy and action.
Today's democracy and action aligned with core democratic values.
You know what Tim?
What Dr. Mike Moore is doing and what he's bringing to the surface discussion here tonight.
Isn't just about quality of public education.
It's hitting a core democratic value of the quality and truth.
If you're out there and you're trusting education to be that opportunity for you.
Like Dr. Mike Moore said, it's part of the dream like, hey, I want to become something.
I have a passion and affinity towards learning to be an engineer or a computer scientist or whatever it is, right?
I should trust that that institution is supporting that with opportunity and access.
So core democratic values, equality, everybody should have access.
Like Dr. Mike Moore said, it shouldn't matter what kind of cultural capital you have.
It shouldn't matter whether you're rich, whether you know, you're working class, whether you know,
wherever you are at financially, if you're in school, if you're signed up, right?
You're following your dream.
Like, let's support that.
Let's lift you up and you should be able to trust those institutions have your back.
So truth on our and transparency.
No hitting costs.
Let's go.
Let's get, let's get with the times.
Let's make learning about learning and not about another business opportunity for all kinds of extra parties to be.
You know, overcharging nothing's free.
Let's figure out how we can make it accessible and we can invest because remember what I always say I borrow that phrase.
Commitment without currency is counterfeit.
So we're really committed to all of our students, right?
Let's put the money forward.
There are all kinds of things like tuition and course fees and program fees,
but those towards making the that you show up the class.
Just like Dr. Mike Moore said, you show up and you're ready to go, right?
And that's not that's not like there aren't kinds of hidden things.
You have to have figured out and done in order to be at the same level.
Everyone else is going to be entering that class.
Love it.
So that's today's democracy.
And there you go.
Nice one.
Johnny Lupinati.
Yeah.
Look at that.
Dr. Mike Moore's cloud.
Dr. Mike Moore.
Did you know that you were going to be the focus of democracy and action to my friend?
I did not.
This is a huge thing.
I might actually have to retire from being a professional.
I've hit the pinnacle of.
No, man.
We've got to keep it going.
That's part of the democratic duty.
Keep it rolling.
My guy did a couple of those terms and just to go back to you know.
So when we keep using this word access, right?
And and it is it's it's been a huge word.
You know, students, student, I mean, people need access to education.
But with that, though to then come so.
So I get access.
I get admitted.
I'm allowed in and well, I show up for class.
And now I figure out what books I have to buy you started describing.
Though Mike like a situation where.
I would go to class and I already have my materials.
Like talk more about that model and how that works.
Yeah.
So there's there's two different models of affordable access programs.
One is a course by course where faculty decide to be part of it.
And then there's an entire campus model.
So every section, every student, every course in in the course by course model.
It's mostly digital products.
So if you're using a course where digital textbook that's when you register for the class,
you're charged for it on your bursar account.
And then it's automatically loaded into the learning management system for you.
So you're just going to class on day one with access to material.
And then in the entire the whole campus model.
Digital materials are automatically loaded into your LMS and then physical books.
If there are any are either shipped to you to your off campus address or available
for you to pick up pick up in the bookstore.
So you're covered there with the course by course model.
Not every course is using this particular model.
And some places is only 30% of all sections or classes.
Some places it's 60% so it varies from place to place.
But these models are allowing students to have access to materials.
Unlike anything we've seen in last 150 years of requiring course materials.
Johnny, you're just more in and jump in there, man.
But I love it.
I mean, this is like, I mean, you know, I teach Tim.
So I love this because course materials are important.
They bring, you know, an important learning components to our learners.
And and I'll throw out there too.
Like what Dr. Mike Moore saying, this is more than just having a collection
of articles or just some books, the sign, right?
That's part of it.
There is always reading.
But there are other materials too.
There's good podcasts out there.
There's really great things that, you know, if we don't bring them together
and make sort of this, like, you know, this multiple ways of engaging with learning
the material.
We're just not we're just not dressing the ways that hopefully our students
had been taught by really great teachers out there that are K 12.
But to the way learning happens, right?
We all learn from like you talked today, Tim.
We started to show off with YouTube video.
So instructors can be creative and bring together, you know,
it's like a chef preparing a good meal.
You're not only going to serve the main course.
You're going to have what you do in class, your activities, your lectures,
and accessibility is important, right?
How can students get all these materials without it being a scavenger hunt?
You know, for the professor for the instructor or for the student,
it just cuts out all that extra, you know,
I don't want to say labor because it's still labor to teach.
Yeah, but all that extra stuff that really, you know,
puts us into the rut of doing things the way we probably experienced them.
Well, I put it in the syllabus.
Well, that's like one thing, but like you got to have more than just a
selection of readings, right?
And also, you know, like let's let's let's really be intentional.
Like really good teaching is about curating good materials.
So love these options and ways, Mike is kind of reintroducing us to
and reminding us that we can do differently and we could do better.
I love that. Mike.
Just thinking about that as we're coming in, Mike,
I mean, as you said, you brought to my attention, this whole idea of just
realizing that the success of students is so dependent on their access to
materials and bringing that home and realizing that too.
And you know, on top of the tuition.
Now, I just want to understand.
So course by course is one way, but then the whole, there was this thing.
I saw first date complete is also, it was my familiarity with one of
these programs, which was the entire entire college participated in a first
date complete.
Give me a little rundown on how that works.
Sure. So first date complete is just the name of the Barnes and Noble
education solution.
Every, every company will have a different name for what they do.
So it's again, it's the campus wide model.
So generally the way that works is that there's a per credit hour fee,
16, 17, 18, 20, 22 dollars.
It depends on what's being adopted at the campus at the current time.
And every year that fee is reevalued.
So if you're taking three credits and it's 20 bucks per credit hour,
that's $60 for a class.
You take five classes.
It's $300.
So you're getting access to all of your materials for $300.
Now, the important part of these programs is that students have to have the ability
to opt out.
So as a student, Johnny can say, you know what?
I don't want to be part of this.
I want to go figure out what I need and where, if I can find it cheaper.
So these programs are required to have opt out.
So if you decide that you don't want to be part of this program, you can just opt out.
In some places, it's like a one-click opt out.
In some places, it may be a little bit more difficult.
But I think we're seeing across our education, there's a desire and a drive
to making opt out of these programs a lot easier for students.
So you can just one click and then go figure out.
But the cool part is you have until the census date to opt back in if you decide
that you can't find your materials any other place.
So I think it's really great.
And these programs are a mix of traditional publisher content and open education resources.
So the two go hand in hand.
They're both really part of the future of course materials acquisition
and delivery traditional publisher content and open education resources.
Mike, I got to say, I mean, right now that there's a listener after going,
I did not know Mike, where can somebody find more information?
Your webpage, the best place to start?
Yeah, you can go to my website course materials research.com.
It's too easy.
That has all of my current research and a blog where I talk about course
materials and different aspects.
I like to try to connect course materials and the idea of access to different
things like retention theory, Tinto Aston learning by doing all those other
things, just the theory and education and what it means to have access.
Mike Moore, thanks for busted pencils, Johnny Tim back after the break.
We're back.
Busted pencils fully let it.
Education talk, educated educators talking education.
Numbers 8557524842.
Dr. Mike Moore access the course materials.
Johnny, I said, met him at the conference and I like as long as I've been
teaching in college and stuff, didn't realize the kind of disconnect, you know,
because I would just put in my syllabus.
Here's the book here, the readings that you need and kind of just say,
hey, students, go get them and didn't think about the fact that, you know,
who didn't have access?
I mean, some of them talked to me about that, but, you know, I just,
it just brought home to me.
So that's what I was like, I'm like, Mike, I got to have you on the show because
I want to talk about this because Johnny, we talk about public education and
access and college and learning and access to and the way you connected that
to to those core democratic values.
Like, this is why I'm like, I knew there was something here that Dr.
Mike Moore was going to be talking about.
Well, I love it and then there's nothing I love more than a face to face
connection, especially like you and Mike had where you share a moment.
You're really like, hey, it's all hands on deck when we're talking about quality
public education.
It's all the way from our early educators, you know, the people taking care of young
children out there and teaching them, you know, what it means to be in community
and be together as learners, but also as citizens, it goes all the way through
traditional K 12 and into higher education.
And I don't necessarily like that term.
Higher education, but you know, I mean, I mean, I mean, like our professional
learning, how we're learning, whether it's, you know, whatever career path
we're going into, we're learning to be experts in that area.
We're learning, you know, the the foremost information.
So, you know, whether it's professional development or what it is, you know,
I love that when there's a personal connection and people who are working
on that, you know, who believe it can be done better, who know that it can be
done better, dedicate time and energy towards research, which is a really
important aspect.
We talk about all the time that the era we're in with so much misinformation
and disinformation, how we build trustworthy connections to making change.
Yeah, we do that with information.
We do that as informed educators as teachers, you know, Dr. Mike
Moore talked about his brother, you know, Derek, who's a math teacher
and main.
I love my math teachers out there.
You know, we don't just decide to teach differently one day.
We have a wealth of experience.
You know, we draw on literature, research in our field, math education.
You know, we're always thinking, how can I do this better?
Teachers out there.
I know that's something you think about all the time.
So love that your bus pencils with us and love Tim that you and Mike met
and that Mike's on the show.
I can't wait to have him back.
Right.
I mean, this is an important thing.
We're talking about all the time.
Like, how do we make our courses engaging?
And how do we not let school see pen where we do the same old thing?
And I'm guilty of a two Tim where I like create my syllabus.
Right.
Next thing I know, I'm like, wait, there's more to this.
I need different ways to engage learners, different ways to connect content
with where they're at and how they learn.
And you know what?
I love it.
And it's so important because for years, we could easily slip into, well,
you know, the kids these days.
And like, you know, but come on, get with it.
Right.
There's really great learning opportunity out there.
There's all kinds of like ways to engage learners and content.
Right.
There are podcasts.
There are there's music.
There's YouTube.
There's videos.
There's all kinds of, I mean, there are all kinds of resources.
So I like that there are people like Dr. Mike Moore who research
course materials and write and help provide us with that kind of,
you know, information that helps us make those changes.
Remember, we said change of instruction is directly linked to educators,
to teachers, talking to other teachers.
Exactly.
So love that we got to do that with Dr. Mike Moore tonight.
And with you listener out there, you know, who's participating in the show,
whether you call in or not, we know you're part of the show.
So feel free.
Give us a call anytime.
You know, join the conversation, bust some pencils with us.
You know what else you can do a lot of face to face stuff.
Oh, there is a cool place for face to face.
Johnny Lupinachi.
And I think I know what you're talking about.
That's right.
Monaco brewing company.
Big time advocates of public education and always working hard to build community.
You could go down to the Monaco brewery tap house and Madison or visit them up in Monacoa.
Right.
And you could talk about whatever you want to talk about.
But especially public education and they support that in strong democracy.
Right.
The Monacoa bring companies making Wisconsin great again.
One beer at a time.
Check out Monaco bring company where you can see their progressive beer.
Yeah.
Love it.
Love it.
Love it.
Hey, check it out to Susan.
Text us in for the show.
Sorry.
I was late to the party.
Got a little party party emoji.
What a great topic.
You always bring pertinent information to your audience.
That's from Susan.
Look at that man.
You know, like, yeah, I just I said when I'm Mike and I met.
There we started talking about this.
It was just like, this is good stuff.
Johnny, you got you want to add something there?
Why speaking of pertinent information, Tim?
I mean, like, let's not let's not completely avoid the fact that like we're getting information
at a rapid rate right now at a really important moment for the state of Wisconsin.
A really important moment for the country.
So we have that Wisconsin's fall primary August 13th.
Plan to vote.
Plan to vote in this election, but every election, right?
And also, let me throw out there when we're talking pertinent information.
The Republican National Convention is next week Monday through Thursday, July 15th through the 18th.
So civic media will broadcast live coverage each night from 7 to 8 p.m.
Civic radio network or civic media radio network host Todd Alva will broadcast live from the convention each day, noon to 2 with analysis and commentary.
I know Tim, I'll be using the civic media.
Absolutely.
Because not only is that important for Wisconsin listeners, that's important for all of us tuned in around the country.
And to be honest with you around the world right now, this is a big moment for America.
This is a huge moment and say, yeah, I mean, especially I tell you what, we had a great Fourth of July week.
Lots of things kind of happened.
Yeah, we talked about this and it's still going on.
So the whole idea to civic media, get that civic media app and you can just have access.
Hey, we're talking about access.
You want access?
You want free access to your materials.
Civic media app gives you instant free access to all those materials that we do.
Civic media love this show.
Dr. Mike Moore, Busting pencils with us.
Hey, and how about Dr. Nancy Carlson Page, Matt Damon's mom coming back a little remember saying, Matt, you know,
could bring this together though and realize, hey, we got a lot of work to do.
And remember how we linked this to said to your communities, the bedrock of democracy, the foundation, public education.
Man, Johnny Lupinati love Busting pencils with you every night.
Can't wait tomorrow night.
Hey, rethinking schools, joins us Jesse Egopie and see y'all tomorrow.
Oh,
still