This is Busted Pencils.
Fully Letted Education Talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker,
and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci,
educated educators talking education.
Yes, there it is Monday.
Busted Pencils fully Letted Education Talk,
educated educators talking education back
after a long week weekend.
Johnny Lupinacci, man,
we are glad to have you back, you know, out there on the road,
but technically in the air,
but you know, I'm back on back in the saddle,
so it couldn't be happier to start the week off.
Now, what a week.
What a week ahead of us,
but I'd say what's most important is to see you there
with your gear in fact,
because you were bringing your gear
and it was lost in flight and we were like,
what is Johnny Lupinacci?
I wasn't lost, never arrived at the same time.
I'd be fair to the airlines.
I hit a number of cities in a short amount of time,
so once it fell behind,
it just kept traveling and missing me.
And then it was here when I landed back in Washington
and you know, I got off the plane.
I went and picked my gear that never quite made it to me,
but beat me home.
Nice.
And so I'll pick it up and yeah, I'm all back in the home studio
and you're safe.
Yeah, if people are watching on Facebook, on Twitter,
on YouTube, you can see Johnny's got his mic,
he's got his headphones, he's looking good.
Johnny, you know what's great though?
Come on.
Say what?
I want the same page.
We're on the same page.
I'm thinking, man, wouldn't it be nice if we or not
could just head down and have a brew, have a brew?
Somebody busted pencils is sponsored
by the Monaco Brewing Company.
Those guys are big time advocates for public education.
They're always working hard to build community
and make a great beer.
You know what Tim, what's funny about them is they,
they brag they're the most sued brewery in America.
Forget reasons because they're taking on some big giants.
But the Monaco Brewing Company is making Wisconsin great.
Again, one beer at a time,
check out Monaco Brewing Company dot com
to see where you can buy their progressive beer.
Ah, there you go, man, that's exactly why it's great.
Ah, Monaco Brewing Company.
But busted pencils, I tell you Johnny,
it was a week last week, you know, we ended with,
I just go with the end, you know, Louisiana put in
the ten commandments had to talk about that.
But the other really big news, CNN last week dropped
truly a major story.
They did the research.
It was finally about time to see this in the mainstream media.
But looking at, we talk about the show.
In fact, Monaco Brewing Company, yeah,
they went after the vouchers in Wisconsin.
But in Arizona, a full expose of the voucher program
in there and then really got to,
though, talk to an expert finally,
not a journalist who tries to try to act
like they understand education,
truly went to save our schools and got this person,
she's 12 years experience teaching elementary
in middle school.
She's a seasoned expert in K-12 education policy.
She's also a dedicated mom and a passionate advocate.
And she is the director founder of SOS,
Save Our Schools, Arizona, Welcome to Busted Pencils,
Save Our Schools, Arizona.
Beth Lewis, how are you doing, Beth?
Hey guys, thank you so much for having me.
I'm great coming to you from a hot, hot, hot, Arizona.
Yeah, we were talking about that.
It's a little bit, you know, unseasonably or weirdly hot
because it's kind of like for a lot of us outside
of Arizona is like, what's always hot there, Beth?
What do you mean it's hot?
It's hot but it's humid.
I don't know how y'all do it.
The dry heat thing is real and it works.
And right now we're just, yeah, it's not working out for us.
So, Beth, before we get into this, you know,
the vouchers, what's happening on Arizona?
Save Our Schools, Arizona.
Talk a little bit about where Save Our Schools, Arizona,
came, how it got founded.
You give us some mechanics,
what's happening with the organization?
Yeah, thanks.
So we started in 2017.
We were just moms and teachers
that were going down to the Capitol
after Trump got elected, trying to figure out
what on earth was going on with classroom funding
and, you know, why was this lady, Betsy DeVos
becoming Secretary of Education?
And lo and behold, they dropped a universal voucher bill
in our legislature and we got to watch sort of like
the crazy political shenanigans that went down.
And so we sat around a kitchen table
and we were like, what are we gonna do about this?
Like, this will destroy our public schools.
And so we did a referendum.
We had to collect 110,000 signatures
in three months in the Arizona heat.
And everybody was like, oh, there's no way you could do this.
You guys have no political experience, you know,
you're just a bunch of moms and like, well, watch us.
And we did put it on the ballot in 2018.
Voters rejected it, two to one.
It absolutely stomped on that referendum.
You know, vouchers never win
whether on the ballot and that was true in Arizona.
And then we kind of formalized and we said,
well, we did this thing, but the voucher pushers
aren't gonna stop so we can't stop either.
And sure enough, they came back every single year
they tried to push, you know, more and more expansions.
And then in 2022, they did the ultimate, you know,
universal voucher expansion the first
and least accountable, most expansive in the entire country.
And now we all have to sit here and deal with
the devastating impacts of that decision.
Well, so, and that's the history there too
is save our schools.
And then, you know, what I like though too
is what you talked about here, Beth,
it's, you know, a bunch of people's like a bunch of moms.
But you're the, you know, not the moms for liberty.
And I love save our schools finally getting some media exposure
because of the hard work that you guys are doing.
And people with thinner going, SOS,
maybe there's one in my state, they're very well may be.
In fact, look across, it was, you know,
the early, early to the save our schools,
some people were going, I remember in 2011 or 12
when Matt Damon spoke in Washington DC.
Yeah, yeah, that was kind of the origins of grassroots,
truly grassroots parents, students, teachers, activists,
getting together and saying save our schools
because Beth, you highlighted very much what you knew
in 2017 was they were coming for public education as we know it.
Whether it's in the vouchers and so yeah,
if you're out there listening, going,
see if there is a save our schools,
but get this moving because I was really looking forward
to having you on, Beth,
because I think the save our schools movement
needs to be reignited across this country.
And so when you're talking about the voucher expansion
into Arizona, we know the expansion in Wisconsin,
we know the expansion in Ohio,
we know the expansion in Florida.
It's expanding everywhere.
And so thank you for the hard work.
First of all, that you and save our schools
Arizona is doing out there.
Oh, thanks for the thanks.
It's exhausting, but it is so worth it.
I know you all, well, you Tim are in Wisconsin.
We work with the amazing folks
at the Wisconsin Public Education Network.
There are, we are not all affiliated
under the name saber schools,
but there are organizations like ours
and Wisconsin Penn in every single state.
And I'm happy to connect to you.
So just reach out on Twitter,
whatever your social media is
and get you connected because you're right, Tim.
Yeah, it's good because the movement, yeah,
because it's just going to continue.
And as you say, as they point out,
really in the CNN here is the kind of the unaccountable
but then the vouchers, let's do this.
So we have to always do this vouchers 101
in Arizona.
What are they?
How do they work and why are save our schools
Arizona saying no vouchers?
Yeah, so a voucher is basically, you know,
just the government handing over seven to $40,000
on a debit card or an account for anybody to use.
Basically, however they wish with very few guardrails
in Arizona, which I know sounds bananas,
but it's really true.
So folks can use it for anything that's deemed educational
by our totally wackadoodle department of education
run by a superintendent who really doesn't believe
in public schools.
And so a lot of folks who are using the voucher
are people who always chose private school.
And that's fine.
That's their prerogative,
but now they're taking this huge amount of money
that our state cannot afford and nobody budgeted for.
There are also a lot of folks that are using it to homeschool.
Most folks will tell you it does not cost $7,000
per child to homeschool.
And so there's tons of waste in the system.
And you can even see all of these Facebook posts
of parents saying, I don't even know how to spend
all of this money, you know?
Like crowdsourcing ideas of like,
I have all this extra money.
What could I do with it?
And so they're coming up with like, you know,
kayaks and bounce houses and water park admission
and the Department of Education
is just greenlighting all of this.
We just had a report last week that said that they were buying,
there was an $1,800 collectible Star Wars Lego set.
That was just, yeah.
Yeah, I was gonna say that.
The Arizona's the news story with people buying like Johnny,
the ultra-ultimate Lego set, you know,
like with a millennium Falcon,
you can actually take between planets once you build it.
You know, it's fully got the worth.
Yeah, I mean, thousands of dollars, you know,
on account of it.
You know, Johnny, when we've talked about that,
we kind of hinted it in Florida.
There were some noise about some of the vouchers
being used on Disney trips and, you know,
things like that.
But the reality now, though, is this Beth,
this, these aren't fake stories.
This is what's happening because the money,
if I'm a person, what you're saying is,
and so I potentially homeschool my kids,
and I'm like, wait a minute,
I now have access to upwards of seven,
or minimum $7,000 that's mine.
The state doesn't ask me for receipts to say,
how did you spend this the right way,
or there's not guardrails?
Or is it just, I make the connection of going,
well, it's a bounce house,
and we're studying the physics of bouncing.
Right.
Yeah, they do ask for the receipts, right?
And there's a review process,
but that's the process, right?
It's saying, well, you know,
I saw a basketball hoop at a local public school
that serves a thousand kids.
So I should get to have a basketball hoop
in my front yard for PE, for my kid, you know,
same with like a piano in every living room.
It's just completely washes away
the entire idea of public education,
and it's actually really fiscally irresponsible,
and it's being pushed by people
who champion themselves as, you know,
they're responsible ones.
So yeah, it's open to a ton of grift.
We've got private schools
that are jacking up their tuition rates
because, you know, free enterprise,
system's gonna do what it's gonna do.
And we also have a lot of subpar
strip mom schools that are popping up everywhere.
And there's no regulation,
there's no safety regulations.
So we have no idea if the folks in front of kids
are qualified teachers,
whether they're teaching qualified curriculum,
whether they're teaching that, you know,
I don't know, Jesus wrote a dinosaur 6,000 years ago.
We don't know,
but we do know that they're not accredited
and they're popping up everywhere.
And we even have like microschools
opening in people's garages.
And nobody knows what their kids are learning
next to like power tools.
Our guest is Beth Lewis.
Save our schools Arizona.
It's busted pencils fully let it education talk.
Yeah, you can give us a call 8557524842.
Valtors in Arizona, CNN did a huge story last week.
Beth was featured in that story.
You kind of hinted though too.
I want to ask the question,
wait, Jesus and dinosaurs, they didn't,
that didn't happen.
Oh, wait, that can be taught.
Hey, people in a public school,
that's what we want to get into.
What are the accountable regulations that go in
or actually there aren't very many?
And really this, who's drawing on this unregulated tax money?
Who are the people grabbing the vouchers?
It's busted pencils.
It's fully let it education talk.
Give us a call when we get back.
Jesus and dinosaurs, our days are precious and so few.
We know, we know we are the people.
But does this guy know that we're blue?
We bring the doughnut out of the dill.
We drown, we drown, we drown, we drown.
Busted pencils, fully let it education talk,
educated educators, talking, education,
our guests, director, executive director,
Beth Lewis, save our schools, Arizona.
The numbers 857524842, Sherry and, and Horacan,
thank you for saying good evening, Johnny.
We always love when Sherry's out there texting in
to tell us hello.
Appreciate that.
Johnny Lupinacci, so we were talking about the, the vouchers
and we say, you know, what's happening in your state
with vouchers?
So what's happening in Florida?
What's happening in Wisconsin?
What's happening in Ohio?
What's happening in Arizona?
Sounds very much like what they've kind of warned us about.
So before we get into how vouchers are being used,
Beth, I was wondering though the question of going,
but why did somebody originally say,
hey, we should give kids a voucher
so they can go to private schools?
I mean, what was the original thought there?
It's a complicated answer.
I mean, if you go back to, you know,
the segregation academies in the 60s
that were a result of Brown versus Board,
like you can point to the very, very racist roots
of the original voucher system, which was championed
then by Milton Friedman, right?
Who is obviously not a friend to public education
and, you know, not a good guy.
But then if we look at sort of the modern iteration,
there's been a lot of money poured into these fights
across the states and it's always starting
with sort of like a sympathetic audience.
Like we want to help low-income students,
we want to help children of color,
we want to help students with special needs
and it's been proven time and time again
that these special interests are really just trying
to wedge open the door, right?
To sort of condition, folks in that state
to maybe think that vouchers are a good idea.
And they started in Arizona with special education students,
but it's, you know, it's taken different pathways
in different states, but one thing we know
that's not the kids that it's benefiting.
No, we put that out there too
because, you know, Wisconsin, Milwaukee,
the home of vouchers, we said it,
it was put forth as, yeah, we're going to give kids,
poor kids, typically minority poor kids
who are in failing public schools,
we're going to give them an exit path
to a private school or the school of their choice
where they can take their tax money
that would be going to that local failing public school
and they can kind of put it in their backpack
and go find a thriving private school or a home school
but they can get, you know, it's the escape.
And as you pointed out, Beth, now 40 years later,
we have the research and academic escape.
No, doesn't do that.
In fact, looking at Josh Cowan's research
out of Michigan State University, sorry,
the academics actually suffer
when kids take vouchers and leave the public schools.
So they're not there.
But now, Johnny Lupinacci,
wondering about you though, man,
you're thinking about this.
How, we kind of, you know,
we're rehashing in one way a story
that we've heard lots and lots of times.
But the idea that Beth was kind of indicating here,
the unaccountable or even the kind of no boundaries.
So you as a parent, Johnny,
you can now dip into $7,000 and do what you want with it.
I was wondering what you were thinking about that.
Well, I think that's a flippant comment on how it works.
But that's how sometimes news and radio works, right, Tim?
It's not, you know, it's not just you get to do whatever,
although it's pretty loose in some places.
And then it's being tested out.
And I'll match that with an equally flippant comment
in politics for a long time.
We test the boundaries in Arizona.
Do it with radical politics.
We do it with radical conservativism.
It's saying like, hey, let's see how far we can push it.
And Arizona has led us in that.
Like, hey, we can push the boundaries this far.
We can have a neo-Nazi run for office.
They might not win, but we can see how far in Arizona,
unfortunately, and that's not to speak ill of the great teachers
that I work with, Phoenix that I work on, work with in Tucson.
There's amazing people in Arizona.
So when we talk about these places,
we got to be careful not to be like the big bad Arizona's,
right, because it's not representative of the people
of Arizona and Beth can attest to that.
As she said, you know, never underestimate a mom,
let alone a bunch of moms, let alone moms
that are also experienced educators, right?
And so, you know, I think to kind of get back to that,
though, can we see these boundaries being tested
in places like Arizona, in places like Florida,
and now 12 states.
When Oklahoma's a little different, right,
because it's a tax credit.
But there is a problem, and it's an education problem
in this country.
I don't agree with this particular solution,
but something has to happen.
Something has to be different about how we support good schools,
because no kid should have to go to a bad school.
And right now, depending on either how you look,
where you live or how much money your family has,
kind of determines what kind of school
you can be in in this country.
And so that just should never be the case.
So we back way up and say, hey,
if we funded our public schools,
instead of tried these other things,
and I'll get to my punchline,
these other things are really not trial and error.
They're intentional.
And they're about creating a marketplace, more spending.
So that $7,000 to me, you ask me what I would do.
It's really, it's economic stimulus in the camouflage
of, hey, we're going to help families educate their kids.
Really just want more money going into,
they want more basketball, goops sold,
because I think Beth hit the nail on the head.
She said, these are supposed to be fiscal conservatives.
They're not, they want money spent, money spent,
money spent, money spent, which is money made
for the big box stores and the industries
that they're supporting.
So rather than support a public municipal system
where they say, hey, we have parks that we share,
we have good PE curriculums, you can play rec basketball.
In fact, we even have youth centers and things like that,
that may be nonprofit or community run.
And we fund those through government municipalities
and tax dollars, right?
Well, that sure sounds like a whole lot
of Democrat talk, doesn't it Tim?
So not to become this whole thing is like,
we want free market.
Beth, you should have a hoop at your house.
Johnny should have a hoop at his house.
In fact, if we want our kids to swim,
we should be able to buy swimming pools.
And the case being made here though
is that there is an educational component
because I will tell you as a STEM teacher,
I've bought LEGO sets.
I think it's a good way to teach kids, right?
I've taken kids to amusement parks specifically
as I school physics teacher.
I know Tim, you know, like you're in Ohio, man,
you get to Cedar Point three times a year, right?
So I mean, but we also learned while having fun together.
Those are great things that our public schools can do.
And in fact, do better.
And yeah, I'm saying do better than we can individually.
And you know this Tim, like I've chosen homeschool
in certain contexts.
So I will say like it does cost more than $7,000.
So this is money camouflage to spend.
Like this is just like to get industry
to make more money, to get spending.
It has nothing to do with improving education.
It really doesn't.
And like Matt is saying, it's taking money away
from things we really do need to invest in as a community.
Yeah, Beth.
Well, I think the context in Arizona matters too,
where I mean, all of our states are underfunded
to a degree, but Arizona being 49th in per student spending
in the entire country means like there is no fat to trim, right?
So every time money leaves via a voucher,
like it is leading to huge school closures, teacher layoffs.
And so it's really as a teacher,
like seeing families taking out collectible Lego sets
when we have to beg and scrimp and save and, you know,
borrow in order to do just the absolute basics.
Like as a PTO leader for my school this year,
we were begging for copy paper and Kleenex.
Yeah, it's Beth.
Lewis, save our school's Arizona.
Busted pencils fully led at Education Talk.
The numbers eight, five, five, seven, five, two, four, eight, four, two.
Hey, give us a call and we get back.
Ask some questions here because you have big exposure
and CNN last week about what's happening in Arizona.
And a lot of this money they're going to,
and we're going to hit this one and get back
on accountable religious private schools
and what's the issue there?
More Busted pencils, we'll me get back.
Stan wiring
Busted pencils fully
Let it education talk educated educators talking education numbers 8575248 42
Yeah, give us a call our guest save our schools Arizona Beth Lewis
Featured in the CNN story last week that really dug deep into the Arizona vouchers and so but the illustration in Arizona
We know in Wisconsin pretty much unaccountable and the the unrestricted, you know kind of
Income threshold that allow people to get these, you know
Wisconsin is pretty much done away with it in Ohio where where we're at, you know part of the you know they they kind of
But still even upwards to like a hundred and fifty thousand dollars. You still can claim an 80% of the cost of public school tuition voucher
So the idea here, too, is that this idea that this money is going to
Families and students who aren't who don't have access to resources
Beth one of the findings from CNN was is that in Arizona well over
50% of the money that went to vouchers
They found out that these were over 50% of the parents their kids were already in private schools to begin with
Yeah, and that's a very conservative number like most data shows nearly 75% so
Yeah, we're we're paying an extra five hundred million dollars that we weren't paying for student education before and our legislature
Simply failed to budget for that and so we have this massive budget deficit in our state
Um, and our vouchers are driving nearly half of that deficit along with our crazy flat tax tax cuts for the rich and so
Yeah rich people are benefiting from this
Predominantly, of course, they're low income people that are using the program, but the you know
The vast majority of people are in high-income areas
You think about that Johnny, right? I mean because this is kind of one of the differences here
You know when you used to hear people say well, you know give
The kid in a failing school a backpack full of their own cash and they can take that money leave the public failing public school
And go somewhere else and so
That's a visual when people think of that
But what Beth is saying and what we know is happening in in was constant too with our friend with Ruth Connor from the Wisconsin examiner
is is that a lot of the money that is
This isn't money that was in a public school that now went with that student to a private school
These are people that were in private schools
And so they're getting money and what's happening and I know this is one of the issues Johnny because what will happen is is that
There won't be enough money for public schools because the over expense of vouchers
You know, we talk about this being a states rights issue in if states would just fund their public schools adequately
Well, but you can't account for this dude to fund the schools adequately if people are taking money that they never even thought was going to be spent
You asked me to yeah, I'm sorry John. I was throwing it out to you something about that
Oh, I mean Tim and I think you know my stance on this I think
They're like I'm against the vouchers. I think it's a bad idea
I think it doesn't only destiny
Public education if they if you want to find a way to create economic stimulus or to give
Some some kind of discount for people who are in private schools
Right or choose that great still fund your schools like it doesn't get you out of
Funding your state schools if a state says we want to go above and beyond and we really want to support all these private schools in our state
You know, hopefully they're good quality private schools and not these for profit kind of
You know like new versions of like their own curriculum
There's got to be some accountability to what constitutes a school
It's kind of like an airport Tim. I can't open an airport up
Because I'm an enthusiast and I'm pretty good at flying and I'm not but I'm just saying like you can't just open one up
There's regulations even if your private airport versus public same thing for hospitals
Same things ought to be true for schools
And they just aren't in a lot of our states
It's sort of like what if you want to have a school
It just say you have a school and go so that's a big problem
And I think vouchers doesn't solve our education problem
What it does is it creates more like I like how Beth said it more irresponsible spending
That doesn't go towards quality education for anybody
And and and then so when we talk about so when you say like how do I think about I mean
I'd love for the times where I've chosen private schools because I will say
There are places where public schools are not serving their community and I worked in them
Right, and it was really tough
It didn't mean I turned my back on public schools and said hey
I don't believe in you in a as a concept
I just say you are failing to meet the needs of our community you are more dangerous
Then what supposedly would be a less diverse like private schools aren't always in every place
Not diverse and not more you know
In terms of meeting human rights and some district some public schools are very conservative and dangerous for certain kids to go to
So in those contexts is a great area
Even in that moment so if you say hey, you can get a tax break for kids going to that
I would have helped a lot of those
Families who were making that necessary choice that the safest place or the best education for my kid wasn't in the local public school
That doesn't mean we can't fund public schools. You still got a fund them
But you got to also address the fact that like not all schools are safe in good places for kids or teachers
So for me, it's a big conversation about
Notive vouchers absolutely not that just throws gasoline on a on a fire that we're trying to put out and the put out putting out the fire the angle is
Good quality education for every child in this country right if if private schools want to exist great
They can exist they just cost money somewhere you have wanting to go to them good
But they shouldn't be the a necessity for anybody and and in too many of our districts where it's where it's politicized
They are I mean schools are not safe places for kids all kids to go to right now
So so it's really it does get complicated for me and it gets highly politicized because I'm against vouchers
But I'm against that some of the angles that are taken up in in the argument against them
But I want to hit you on the one thing though to embed you can jump in here and you say not safe because what we really saw
Particularly illustrated in Arizona is Johnny a lot of this money going to
Very unsafe. I'm going to use that word religiously
For for rocious, you know kind of Christian nationalistic
Very anti-LGBTQ anti-special education and again
truly saying we're not a safe school and you're not welcome here the whole idea here right Beth
There's a lot of that yeah and and the CNN story you know highlighted one that's associated with turning point
Which is a Charlie Kirk Trump MAGA
Association and there's but that is just the tip of the iceberg there are tons of these schools
MAGA type schools in their statements of faith that they require students and teachers to sign they say
Homosexuality is sinful marriages between a man and a woman. There's only there are two genders right and so already right out of the gate
They're picking and choosing their kids. So it's not school choice right. It's a school doing the choosing
There's tons of hate that is being funnel or funded by my taxpayer dollars
Which I absolutely have poor and in Arizona like I understand the situation that you're describing Johnny
And I there are definitely different situations across the states
But we have open enrollment so any cake can go to any school
Any school in any district I can send my kid anywhere. We also have
20% of our public schools are charter schools
So I can literally send my kid anywhere they want to go
I don't need a voucher right the private schools don't want my kids the elite private schools that are worth their salt and actually accredited already have the kids they need they're not the ones that are
Building new campuses right because they already have these beautiful campuses that are already funded by the majority wealthy people and then the scholarship kids that they've already selected
For their school campus, but instead we're seeing all of these crazy private schools that are
Maga affiliated pop up in strip malls in churches in church basements. I mean it is
Creepy and if that's what parents want to do for their kids fine, but I do not want my taxpayer dollars going to fund it
Johnny, I see you nod in the lady. Yeah, I think that's an iron on the same page with that. I mean, it's like yeah
You like this is creating a bigger problem in education. Do not need these like zero accountability schools
You know that that aren't that are they can even be new and be a great school
Just be credited be of high quality higher quality teachers and share that mission that like public education writ large even
With accountability we could even fold in we've talked about this Tim. I know you don't want to clean like this because it's like we're deep in the trenches
Because we're like vouchers bad idea
Charters by and large
We're part of this and like we're a bad idea. We're in them now
So accountability for charters being part of a district being part of a community like Beth said being accessible
To students without cushions without vouchers. They're just funded as part of the public school system
So it like no free market for education
Like let's have accountability and quality and then the like the religious elite schools or even the academies that are not religion
They've always existed since before we were even a country
Right continue to exist and they just kind of like Beth said they do their own thing. They're not on this
So the vouchers don't really help or hurt them
They just jack there to they can just raise their tuition a little bit more and like tell people everyone got 10% discount
Now you're performing arts center and a new football field right because we just magically raised our tuition
Great, but it's the same kids that are going there right there's more money into the school
I totally agree with you Johnny and like I was just talking to my friend who was born in Egypt
And she's in Egypt for the summer and she was telling me like yeah, there's not really public schools here
So basically it's like a voucher system, but everything's private and so
They'll give you a tiny voucher right
It's not exactly about her, but if you don't have the money to go to a private school
You just don't and like well, what do you do if you're if you can't afford school for eight year old?
She's like would they just don't go to school?
They work and that's exactly what's going to happen in this country if we go to a fully privatized system
I think it's a really important to point out
That Trump has said if he's elected president
He wants to pass the universal voucher across the entire country, right?
That's part and parcel of project 2025 and you know if we think
Johnny you seem hailed it when you talked about the airport right like we should not be privatizing these things
So like we'll get health care look at the prison system anytime you privatize something that is for the public good
You turn people into commodities
And guess who gets the good service. It's the rich people who have privilege and access and resources
Everybody else gets screwed and that's what's going to happen if we privatize public education in this country
It's a really dangerous path and I don't think we have a solid democracy if we don't have public education
bad
Arizona save our schools dropping some truth and some heat eight five five seven five two four eight four two
Beth I mean what would you hit there too and in Johnny this is you know we we say it every show almost every show
Public education when you just hit it foundation of democracy and it may not be perfect
But it's it's it's got that promise or that potential where we say it's supposed to be and we need to push it
But the idea of really recognizing that in a democracy
The function of a public school system really is to you know people like a literacy math
Yeah, but it's really just really really really important to socialize people into being responsible active citizens
And the attack on public schools
Really to realize this is to say this is an attack on democracy
Beth you know that's what you were going with
Absolutely, I mean, I think the vision for heritage foundation the divorce family right is a Christian nationalist nation
That subscribes to sort of a Trumpist mega ideology and that's why we're seeing these schools pop up in Arizona
That's why we're seeing vouchers go this route. And that's why they've invested so many hundreds of millions of dollars in pushing vouchers
It's not pro-democracy
It's certainly not you know pro real education. I think we're watering down education. We're ruining the futures of many many students and
Ultimately, I think we'll watch the enravelling of our democracy here in Arizona and then across the country if we go this route
So we're fighting back hard Beth Lewis save our schools Arizona. Where can people check you out?
Where should they look at save our schools Arizona? How do they get in touch with you?
Yes, so we are on Twitter
Let's see. I
I should know this but I always get it wrong. It's a z underscore
Uh, so s
All right, we'll put it out for people to
They'll find you at Arizona underscore SOS. I got it. All right
It's Beth Lewis van Beth save our schools Arizona and your team. Thank you for busting pencils
Thanks so much for having me guys. It was great to meet you. All right, Tim and Johnny breaking it down when we get back busted pencils
Come on back with us right after the break
Oh
What's that
Oh
Uh, you know what last segment busted pencils only let it education talk educated educators talking education numbers eight five five seven five two four eight four two speaking of that number
We've got cj cj on the line cj. What's happening out there friend
Hey
Thank you
Busted pencils for taking my call
share man the question
What it costs
Per student for a Wisconsin
You know k through 12 what is it cost the
Per pupil I'm curious on that and then I have one other question about
Uh, you know school choice
You know
I'm curious what it does cost
Well, so the average per the average the average the average per pupil spending in in Wisconsin is again different numbers
But 11 to 13 thousand dollars annually is the per pupil spending
Well
Okay, I appreciate that input. I guess my question is people won't
Um
Be so interested in school choice
If the public schools were performing and I'm not blaming the teachers
I'm blaming the parents more than anything
um
For not requiring their kids to perform in school
Um
So I get why people
It shouldn't even be an issue if public schools had results and if you read the results
Um, it's pretty sad
How uh, you know the proficiency in reading writing and arithmetic
all across the the state
um
There are some schools that are performing better than others
But you know, I get why they parents may um
Make that choice if schools are not performing
Johnny absolutely cj thanks for calling and we're gonna call back sometime cj
We could talk more because I don't I got to cut you short because we only got a couple minutes to wrap up the show and we opened up a lot tonight
But I love cj's point
You know the per pupil you like every state sets a budget and spends a certain amount per student
And so I think tami said on average. I always think in my head. It's like 12-5 you in upwards of 16 low end of 11 and Wisconsin
You know in different states. It's a different amount
But you know, that's sort of like per pupil, but I'm with cj too except cj
I don't pull I don't I don't I'm not blame in parents. That's it. That's it to me. That's that's an angle
That doesn't that doesn't get me anywhere
But I am holding schools responsible like you cj. I agree
We wouldn't have or need this mess
But now like you cj
I'm not blaming the teachers or the school leaders
Well, sometimes I'm hard on those school leaders. Yeah, we are
They have simple, but I know a lot of great principals who hands are tied in this mess too
And so I just think in general schools ought to be held accountable and cj. We're on the same page
a strong public school system
Shouldn't fail any large group, right? There's always going to be some bumps in the road
There's going to be some struggles. That's how democracy works
But when by and large it only serves or advantages a few at the cost of many
It's a failing system and schools are failing children in this country
And so but my we both agree on that problem the solution has been so let's make it a free market
And I think that's a bad move
I think the solution is to fund and absolutely make every school a great school
We wouldn't have this problem. We wouldn't have to be choosing other schools
Right, and so
You know, that's the big thing I get into
Should we take a call from mark real quick? We got mark on the phone. No, yeah, yeah
We got but he's putting out a question, you know the results and we'll talk about that because cj2 and when you do
Talk about the results. I don't I don't I don't think they're as not I don't I don't want to say I don't think I know
This whole idea and Johnny we've had so many conversations. What is proficiency proficiency? Yeah, that's right
Yeah, like those rankings cj. We got we got to look at this
But the research though cj on private school accountability when private schools are held to the same standard when they are
Helped to the same standard as public schools and when you compare students in private schools
Who got vouchers who left the public schools compared to the public schools?
It just doesn't come out that the private schools make an academic difference. I disagree Tim
I think this is a bogus argument
Oh, when you try and get success of a private school against success of a public school
You're like trying to say what's better hot dogs are hamburgers
I mean, it gets really subjective and in fact and in fact, you know good public schools and good private schools
Lots of land kind of on the same place and they do when you do
But bad public schools against a really good public school
It's like an unfair fight a bad a great public school against a really really crummy
Private school. It's not gonna like so the in general. This is like like saying what if ants fought bears
What if bears went up against a shark who would win? This has been by and large
I think how the education argument gets framed
And it's all just smoking mirror distraction from the fact of like schools need to be high quality
They are a government. They are owed to the people people pay taxes for these kinds of things
If that's not the country you want to be in then then this isn't this then don't live in a democracy
But a democracy is about that kind of piece of thing
So if you like democracy get over to Monaco Brewing Company grab a beer with them. They're a great place
You know check them out you can buy the beer online
But then we got to get back to this too because I would be remiss if I didn't get to add this piece in
We would be fools and we were kind of foolish
We might be a shit
We might at times find ourselves on a ship of fools Tim. You know how we are
But but we would be foolish
We are a little foolish sometimes
But we would be missing a huge thing and doing a disservice to so many of our listeners and so many of the friends and family
We have across this country going to schools if we didn't say
That by and large
American public schools are Christian schools. They're not safe places for people with diverse religions
They ought to be they're not safe places for all our LGBTQ children and that's not a religion
But that's their life their identity. They're being they're not safe places all the time for Jewish families
They're not the safe place for Muslim families. They're not the safe place. They are by and large
They're supposed to be though. They're supposed to be but I'm just going to say as someone who's in through the system and in the system
Right and is in it. I can't just say hey, there's these religious schools that they are doing
You're using tax dollars to do religious stuff news news check public schools do it way worse and get away with it
Well, I'm holding them all accountable saying that if you really do want
Separation of church and state it doesn't exist
So quit dreaming and figure out how to coexist all together and that's a topic for many shows
Do many just can't be here and say there's a religious movement to have religious schools
Like have you been in a public school?
Like it's all it's mostly white values all
In today's doctrine we got to come back on this one because you johnny lupinachi and Tim selector
It's going to be the great debate busted pencils fully ladded Beth Lewis. Thank you. Save our schools Arizona
Check y'all out tomorrow Jonathan Gercot acu
You