Testing Education: What Have All Those Tests Done to Education?

This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.

Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Luponacci,

educated educators talking education.

There it is Monday, Busted Pencils fully-ledded education talk.

Educated educators talking education weekend is over.

Johnny Luponacci is in the house.

Dr. Tim Slecker, that's me.

I'm in the house.

Got a guest.

We're not gonna get to our guest yet.

You know, we've got some things to talk about.

Johnny, the weekend, though, man.

How was your weekend?

It's great, man.

It's, you know, coming up on the kids

who are almost out of school for the summer.

You know, I'm winding things down.

We talked about it last week a little bit.

Got to graduate all those MIT students

who are now officially teachers.

Nice.

I'm headed out as a reinforcements.

We know there's a kind of constructed teacher short.

There's a reason why our teachers are getting so burnt out.

And also, the moralized in too many ways.

But there's always hope.

And there's great hope in the incoming crop

of future teachers who are, you know,

already kind of part of a generation

that says, hey, we can do better.

Let's do it.

So I get really energized and excited

about folks coming into teaching

and not ready to just go in and be the replacements,

you know, the cannon fodder.

Exactly.

But actually, you know, equipped to kind of navigate

what is and move us towards what we know can and ought to be.

And that's like, I mean, that's going to be a theme tonight

because I was going to say, man, you did it.

Yeah, you hit it nice.

I mean, the theme of what can be talking about that, though,

and talking about a whole week too, again,

tomorrow night, rethinking schools coming on.

And then Wednesday, Johnny, special Wednesday episode.

If people remember April 30th, the Monaco Brewing Tap Room,

well, why?

Well, first of all, busted pencils

is sponsored by the Monaco Brewing Company

who sued the state of Wisconsin

to end that nasty voucher system that hurts public schools.

Monaco Brewing Company is making Wisconsin great again

in one beer at a time.

Check out Monaco Brewing Company dot com to see

where you can buy the progressive beer.

And if you happen to be in the Madison area,

check out Wednesday night, live six o'clock,

get over there to the tap room with Kirk, the owner,

because it will be busted pencil,

simulcast live right out of there.

Yeah, Johnny and Tim, we're not going to be there this time

like we were April 30th, but we're going to be there

on the computer hosting the show,

talking to everybody out at the Monaco Brewing Company,

the big thing to everybody wants Kirk want you out there,

get to the Monaco Tap Room for Wednesday, six o'clock, live event.

Hey, it's get out the vote, teachers to go into busted pencils,

check it out Wednesday night, Monaco Brewing Tap Room.

Johnny and then the rest of the week too,

maybe even another special announcement this week

for some other things that are happening.

You said though, teaching, getting back to teaching,

and our guests tonight, boy, talk about teaching,

truly the book, right?

On somebody level, somebody level.

I mean, she is a retired educator from Cambridge

and Boston Public Schools.

She has extensive experience in middle school humanities teacher,

district staff developer, school-based administrator.

She's the author of Why Fly That Way,

Lincoln Community and Achievement.

She's an active member of the Massachusetts teacher education.

Teachers Association.

And she is deeply committed to maintaining our democracy

and its foundation that is public education.

And her new book, Testing Education,

It Teachers Memoir is out.

Welcome to busted pencils, Kathy Greeley.

How are you, Kathy?

I am so thrilled to be here with you guys.

That's so fantastic.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, love it, love it, love it.

So how was that, the educated educators talking

education, is that what you wanted to hear there,

the kind of, yes, you said before the show,

let's rock and roll.

I love it.

I've been playing your, what's it called, the intro.

Your intro, to all my friends and telling them

about your podcast and your, but I just love

the educated educators talking education

because it's, honestly, it's kind of radical these days,

right?

It's kind of sad to say that, but it is pretty radical.

And well, you know what, I like being radical, so.

Yeah, I was going to say radical education.

I mean, education, the truly digging into it

and thinking deeply is a radical act.

And in fact, the attack that we're talking about, too,

that we will be talking about in your book, though,

is that, you know, that is the attack.

The attack is on thinking, on democracy.

And we recognize that.

But Kathy, I mean, 40 plus years teaching, though,

before we really get into the book, what is it?

And I'm going to say, was it?

What is it about teaching that excited you,

excite you, and makes you imagine

about better things in the future?

You didn't send me that question.

I know.

I know.

Oh, I was like, wow, where it goes.

So I think I actually talk about this a little bit

in the book that I was born, like, into the 60s and 70s.

And I really wanted to save the world.

And, you know, I tried a few other venues,

and they just weren't for me.

And I think that I fell into this.

I always loved being a learner, even though I did not

always love school.

And I know you guys have talked about the difference

of that on your show, the difference between school

and learning and education.

And I think I really did see myself as a student,

like, sitting there sometimes thinking,

I could do a better job than this.

And then I discovered that it actually

isn't all that easy to be a good teacher.

Like, I think there are things that people can naturally

bring to teaching.

But I also think there's a lot that you have to learn.

There's a whole art and craft around teaching.

But what excited me was seeing young people do things

that turn their brains on.

I guess that's the easiest way to say it,

is even in my very first year of teaching,

where I really didn't know much of anything.

I was feeling my way day to day when I saw kids light up

and be interested about something

and want to know more about why is it that way?

Or why did that happen?

Or what do we do about that?

Like, that is an amazing feeling to me.

And then I think as a teacher,

I had the privilege and responsibility

to help kids get to a place where they did things,

they didn't think they could do,

and they did them beautifully.

And those were some of the best moments of my life,

honestly, was seeing those moments of kids going,

oh my goodness, I never thought I could do that

and yet I did it.

So our guest is the new, not the new author,

but her new book, testing education,

a teacher's memoir, Kathy Greeley,

recounting 40 plus years in the classroom

and the joy that comes with it.

If you want to jump in, it's 855-7524842

is the number 855-7524842.

Yeah, we've got, well, Sherry always out there telling us,

you know, I, good evening guys, always got to love

when Sherry throws us a little text message out there too.

So, and you can always do it that way too.

You don't have to call, you can send us a text message.

We'll gladly read that on air,

but Kathy, one of the things you were talking about

is the joy of teaching, you know, really profoundly there.

And I think what happens in your book is that it kind of,

it's a history of taking away joy.

Yes.

And I was wondering though, before we get into the killing

of joy, and you started to do this,

you know, getting students and kids to that point

where they get to think, you know,

you recount lots of great moments in the book.

But if you could pick one of those great moments

where you just felt that joy is a teacher,

you saw students having that joy.

You can give us a little, just to remember that,

you know, let us know, like, let the listener get a sense

of remembering a time during that time where you said,

you know what, joy was all around

from the teacher, from the student, from the school standpoint.

Yeah, I think kind of sadly,

there were lots of moments of joy

that I don't see happening so much anymore.

But for me, one of the most joyful moments of my year

as a teacher was when my class would write a play.

And we started putting on these plays

because I believed I was a humanities teacher.

I taught English and social studies together

in seventh and eighth grade.

And I wanted my students to feel what it had been,

like to be marching in the in Lawrence in 1912,

or would it felt like to be a soldier in the Civil War

on either side?

Would it felt like I really believe history is people's stories

and that we really needed to embody those stories

as much as possible?

So that's how we started doing plays.

But we ran out of good,

we took two plays that had been written by other people

and then we ran out of plays for 40 students.

So we started writing our own and produced them ourselves.

And I guess I could talk for a solid hour about the plays,

but I will just tell you this one story

that was really moving.

It was maybe one of my best moments

where it was the very first play we did.

I had my students were the directors of the play

and they cast the kids in their different parts

and they cast this one student in the part of a,

we were doing a play about,

actually about the bread and roses strike of 1912

in Lawrence, Massachusetts, which is right near us.

And they cast this lovely young eighth grader

in the role of a union organizer

and he had a huge page and a half monologue to give.

But he had a serious speech impediment problem.

And I asked the kids,

why did you want him to be playing the role

of the labor organizer?

And they said,

because he looks the part and we think he can do it.

And Kathy, let's hold right there.

We'll come back to that because we're right up

on the bread of our business.

Yeah, union organizer,

Kathy Greeley testing education teachers memoir,

we're talking about that book.

Give us a call.

Yeah, when we get back,

we'll talk about that union organizer

and the play busted pencils back after a second.

What's your favorite?

So what everybody says, Kathy,

Kathy loves the music.

Of course you do.

It's busted pencils fully let it education talk,

educated educators talking, education.

Yeah, you know, the best music on the radio,

bumper music for a talk show, of course it is.

Turn in with Johnny and I,

we say, we're going to have to release a playlist soon,

the busted pencils playlist so people can go out

and download that, love it.

Our guest though, I say is 40 plus years as a teacher,

Kathy Greeley, her book testing education,

a teacher's memoir,

we're talking about it.

Kathy, you were talking about that,

that joy moment,

you were talking about the time, you know, back when,

you know, you were teaching middle school,

social studies, language arts,

getting together to put together a play,

the students are directing themselves,

taking ownership of their own learning,

putting together the play,

and they picked a student who you were saying,

it's potentially surprising that they picked them

to be the lead role.

And the student had a speech difficulty issue

and you were telling, you were asking the students why

and they were kind of like, well, we want them.

So get, tell us more about what happened there.

So, so they just believed in him.

I was worried, I believed in my students

and this is something that I think is very different now

for teachers, like you have to make sure,

like we don't let students make choices anymore,

but I didn't want to overrule my students.

Unless I felt like I was going to put this young man

at risk of a failure and embarrassment or something.

So I talked to our speech therapist in the school

and she said, this is awesome that they picked him.

And I'm going to make sure, yeah, I'm going to do,

I don't know if he can do it,

but I'm going to support him as much as possible.

And the kids also said, we don't know if he can do it,

but we're going to support him as much as possible.

And on the night of the performance,

he gets up on his soapbox to deliver this speech

and everybody in the audience knew this kid

and his, he starts out and he says,

and he starts to stutter and I'm holding my breath

and I'm sitting next to the speech therapist

and she just says, start over again.

And he starts over and he delivers this whole speech.

Like it's literally a page and a half of rising

to support the union and people were crying

and the audience erupted in cheers like they were ready

to join the IWW and then after the play,

was over, I mean, that was just such a thrilling moment.

And after the play was over,

I always asked my students to reflect

on what they learned and how they felt about what they did,

what they would do differently, all of that kind of thing.

And this student wrote, I said,

how did you feel about your part in the play?

And he wrote, I felt like a night in shining armor

and that I can do anything.

And I still hold on to that.

I mean, I don't know where he is now.

I hope he hears this.

I just saw a kind of transformation happen in him

and I just want our students to have that kind of opportunity

to do things that nobody expected that they could do.

It's especially themselves.

And yeah, that was a real moment of joy.

That's truly a moment of joy.

And I think about that too.

And what you're talking about, Kathy, too,

is that professional autonomy that you as a teacher had

in that ability for you and your class

to put together this idea of,

we're gonna take this learning moment,

we're gonna turn it into, at that point a play,

I remember doing these types of things too.

Actually, as a learner in thinking they were great.

If you remember that, eight, five, five, seven, five, two,

four, eight, four, two, eight, five, five, seven, five,

two, four, eight, four, two, remembering that time

and when you were a student, when joy came across

and what was it that was happening?

Kathy's talking about this 40 plus years

and then realizing that in that moment of empowerment,

and essentially, Kathy, letting the students take charge.

We talked to Alfie Kohn all the time

and he's like, let's let children make these decisions

and you'd be surprised at what they can do

and what you did there too is that moment.

However, in the book, Kathy,

that's not where you went.

What happened?

What happened over 40 years, Kathy?

Oh gosh, you know Tim, what happened?

You know, it's hard to say where it started,

but I think officially maybe it started

with no child left behind in 2001 with all of those policies.

I personally think it started long before that.

I think I go back to 1983 with the nation at risk

and I go back before that to the Board of Education,

Brown versus Board of Ed,

when a lot of white people were uncomfortable

with the government telling them

that their children had to go to school with black children

and we can go even further back than that.

So, but really, the hammer came down,

I think, starting in 2001 with no child left behind

and this idea of federal testing and standardization

and standardized testing and that we're gonna make sure

that if everybody has to be proficient by the year 2014

and if they're not proficient,

we're gonna chop your head off

and actually they did, like in Massachusetts still,

if kids don't pass our state tests,

they do not get a high school diploma,

which are the Mass Teachers Association of which I'm a part,

we're trying to fight that right now,

but there have been thousands of kids

who have been denied a high school diploma simply

because they couldn't pass the state standardized test,

which is not easy.

I would encourage any of you to try to take it.

There are three of them, math, science,

and English language arts.

So, that's what happened and I would say it was a real

corporatized model of what schools should be.

Schools are not corporations, they're not factories,

but we have turned them into that.

So, yeah.

Well, and so this too, the book's title testing education

that teachers memoir, I gotta think that that was

kind of thrown in there very specifically

because what you're talking about, Kathy.

Yeah, no child left behind.

And Johnny Lupinacci, we do this too, we talk about it.

We dated back, yeah, I think 1983, particularly,

you can go back further there, nation of risk.

We've actually, James Harvey, one of the architects,

we've had him on the show, he talked about that too,

is really being that moment when we empowered

the federal government to kind of say teachers

and public schools are the problem.

And then 2000 with Bush, yeah, no child left behind

and testing our guest, Kathy Greeley,

testing education and teachers memoir.

Yeah, we're gonna have more, give us a call

when we get back.

I'm on my way, I'm at the radical idea of this.

It's my right to you.

Not the relations, no takes,

no fun, no directs, remits.

It's still right to lose.

I'm on my way, and I guess I won't get this,

that's your list, do what to make the whole world co-exist.

Yeah, I'm on my way, I'm on my way, and I guess I won't get this,

that's your list, do what to make the whole world co-exist.

If you don't want to get up and dance, come on.

Busted pencils fully let it, education talk, educated,

educators talking, education.

Yeah, our guest, Kathy Greeley, her book, testing education

and teachers memoir, 40 years, starting with that joyful

moment, self-directed students putting together

a dramatic play and just how that goes.

And then things went horribly wrong.

I think we're all agreeing that while it may have been

in Brown versus the Board of Education

and Nation at Risk, the effect of stifling

and in fact creating that the atmosphere,

no child left behind, Johnny Lupinacci, you agree, disagree?

Oh, I mean, that's a pretty tough polarization

to put me into, in general, yes.

I think policies have a massive impact

and they certainly over time, especially really pushed schools

to be even more, like we talked about the difference

between schooling and education.

And I would say the example that Kathy shared

and writes about really well in the book

is that there were more opportunities

to really be present in the moment,

to understand your class, to know their needs,

to let them learn about each other,

so that they could co-learn and that could be,

like, imagine, listener, you're in your garden

and you get to kind of cultivate and work with the garden

and the gardener is like being a teacher,

like we're working together with learners

and we're kind of reading what they need

and when they need that, and it ebbs and flows

and it's a living organic system.

What we know is that those policies

that not only Kathy and Tim are mentioning here,

but that really limited that and really turned it into,

nope, guess what, you don't get to necessarily have a garden

that's local and important to your bio region

or what you want to grow.

In fact, it's going to be these things

and it might not actually work where you are

and it might not be on the right cycle in the right time,

but this is when and how and why you have to do it

and if you don't, guess what, slap on the hand

and you don't get any money for it

and in fact, not only do you not get any money,

we're going to start labeling you officially

as failing or as non-proficient

and that whole thing just kept policy after policy,

really piling up and really piling up

and by piling up, I meant, like imagine a roof

with more and more snow on it,

eventually it just caves in

and I know that for a lot of teachers,

they feel like it caved in on them.

And you know, so I love the Kathy's here,

Sharon and Memoir teaching over time

to be able to talk about the moments, the great moments

and also the limitations imposed

on being able to do great teaching.

So Kathy, obviously we're all critical

of like no child left behind and race to the top

and these things, but you know, give us some,

our listener who might be like, I get it, I get it.

These things made good teaching harder to do.

But what are some of the significant ways

you would highlight for our listener

that those policies really shape the current state

that we're in in public education?

So I think of, I know it's kind of a cliche,

but if you think about the tip of the iceberg,

if the tip is that test that kids have to take

the standardized test that's going to show us

whether our schools are successful or not,

which is not true, the tests don't show us that at all.

We already know a lot about what our schools

are, what's working and what's not working in our schools.

But I think that what people don't know

is all of that be below that surface,

how much that driving to get kids

into achieving higher test scores

has so dramatically and fundamentally changed

what our schools are.

I don't think people have a clue about that

and that was one reason why I wanted to write the book.

And I initially really wanted to call the book Boiling Frogs

and the publisher wouldn't go along with that.

But the idea and thank goodness

there probably wasn't a great title, but the point was

we know what happens to frogs

if you put them in boiling water, they jump out.

But if you put them in a pot and warm that over time,

they die.

And I think that is what's happened in our public schools

that if we had changed our schools to what they are now

and asked parents to send their kids

to the highly standardized test driven,

data driven, lack of play, lack of choice,

lack of voice in our schools that we have now

20, 25 years after no child left behind,

parents would have rebelled.

They would have said, no way,

are we gonna let this happen to our children?

But it has happened really gradually over time

and there's just been slice after slice after slice attack

after attack after attack.

So when I've talked to people,

I'm like, you know what, if you were,

if you're 37 years old,

at least in the state of Massachusetts,

if you're 37 years old,

you only know the world with standardized tests

and because that's when we started imposing our standardized tests

and that is the world that you've grown up in.

And I really think our job,

especially for older teachers and retired teachers like myself

and anybody who has a vision of something else,

it's really important for us to share

that those experiences,

though that history, those visions of,

and actually honestly, it's research-based understanding

of how children learn best,

which is not like making the drill

and kill kind of things that we see going on.

Or I love your metaphor of the garden.

I just, I'm gonna use that because, you know,

we have a garden and we aren't gonna,

all the plants are different

and the plants need different things.

And yet they all grow and blossom and come to fruit

and that's what schools are, it could be.

But we're treating them like a desert.

You know, there's only, or that's not a great analogy,

but we're treating them like, you know,

everybody is a peep-odd and-

It's like a single cash crop.

Yeah.

Only that one single cash crop matters.

Well, soccer, right?

Soccer, right?

It's called factory farming.

Yeah, factory farming.

It's like versus like really if we talk about

like local gardening.

In sync with our weather systems, our culture,

the different things we like to eat and eat

and that feed one another in that process.

So yeah, Kathy, I mean, love what you're doing.

You know, we only have so much time with us.

So I really encourage folks to get out

and read Kathy's book, connect with her work.

Kathy, before we end up,

part and ways with you though, can you share, okay,

so you've shared both great hope.

You've talked about the context we're in,

like we know better and we can do better.

So let's do better.

But if you could get a couple of wishes granted here,

because you know what, we might,

we might be just educated educators talk in education,

but someday we might actually be genies in a bottle

where we can grant wishes.

What would Kathy Greeley's wishes be?

What would be your like top things

that you would like to see happen?

Right now, if we could just snap our fingers

and make them happen.

Solve poverty and create a more equitable world

because I think all children actually could succeed

if we had a more equitable society.

That's a pretty big order, especially these days.

Short of that, I, I think the people

who talk about problems need to be solved

by the people who are closest to the problems

is really true in schools.

And so I think teachers and end parents and children

need to be involved in the conversation

about how do we create schools that work for everybody?

So I would really like to see that,

so I would really like to see that.

I think we need to really invest in education

in a way that is never happened in this country.

We have the weirdest kind of funding for public education.

And you know, I seriously,

I believe that public education

is the foundation of our democracy.

I think our democracy is really at risk.

And part of that is because we are not raising,

we haven't invested in our schools.

We've de-invested in our schools and our education

and our higher institutions.

And so I don't think we're raising a generation

of critical thinkers and people who feel empowered

by what they're learning and know how to learn

on their own.

So I would like to see more of that.

That's a few wishes.

I love it.

What's really cool about those wishes is

I think your third one, it was connected

into the educational stuff.

I think I share that I think the third one

can bring the first two.

Like I really think if we can make,

we know better, if we do better,

then those generations will want

have a more equitable world.

And I do think that stronger education

is a key to eradicating poverty.

I mean, we need some help outside.

Can't just be all on the teachers in the schools,

but really good public schools will deliver

on a strong democratic community

where it's equitable and where everyone has a...

That's voice valued.

And the decisions are made by those directly impacted

and close to the decision.

So what a novel thing, Kathy,

but love your work, appreciate it.

I mean, we can only scratch the surface tonight

here with listeners.

Real quick, though, not so quick,

but exciting for folks before we part ways with Kathy

and keep the show going.

You know what time it is?

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Phew, a lot of stuff there.

Hey, man, but the delts, check it out.

I mean, in fact, when I was on Maggie Doncho earlier today,

too, there was one of the winners.

There was a winner who was like, I really, really won.

It was so excited about the Scotty Summer,

but oh, man, Kathy, so much going on,

book 40 years of memoir testing education.

It teachers memoir.

Thank you so much for writing it.

Kathy, I mean, go to Amazon.

Where should they go to get the book anywhere specific?

Well, if you have to go to the evil empire

of Amazon, you can, but really it's available.

If you go to your, I'd encourage people

to go to their independent local book stores

and say, could you order this for me

and get a couple extra copies to put out on the shelf?

So, but it's pretty much available anywhere.

Hmm, Kathy, thank you so much for busting pencils.

You did it, you did it.

It was their testing is the, is the, is the book testing

education and teachers memoir, I guess, Kathy Greeley.

And Kathy, we got to say too, say hi to Dr. Nancy Carlson,

Paige Matt Damon's mom, because she is the one

who said you guys got to interview my friend Kathy.

She's got this book she wrote all about her years in there.

So, yeah, say hello to Dr. Nancy Carlson, Paige from Tim and Johnny.

And we're going to have her back in July.

Again, Kathy Greeley is our guest, was our guest our book

testing education and teachers memoir.

Go to your local independent bookstore and get it that way.

Yeah, we love to see it.

And Kathy, thank you so much.

And more Tim and Johnny breaking it down when we get back.

Who's the one?

Oh, listen to that.

There was a field, weeds, no flowers.

That's what we're talking about gardens, beautiful gardens.

Plus, the pencils fully letting education talk.

Educated educators talking education.

If you're watching the video feed, you saw me putting my glasses

and talk, yes, for some reason I need to be able to see

to keep speaking.

It's something, I don't know, this kind of, you know,

eight, five, five, seven, five, two, four, eight, four, two.

Is the number, give us a call, great show, guest,

Kathy Greeley, teacher, 40 years in the Boston area,

Cambridge, Massachusetts, recounted testing.

Testing education and teachers memoirs is 40 years

talking about what was, what happened.

And the wishes, Johnny, I loved the way you put in there

and went, Kathy, what are the wishes?

You're a genie.

She went for that first owner, like eradicate poverty.

He was like, I'm like, whoa, whoa.

But yeah, you think about that one.

But you, you know what, though, Johnny,

so you came back with, though, and saying, like,

empowering true public education,

could really get us in that direction.

I'm, I'm a backup, and I'm saying, it will.

It's not even about could, like, it will.

If people have, if they're supported,

if they're given every, if their needs are met,

learn together, I mean, it was in one of the songs.

Dara, say, co-exist together.

Yeah, that really isn't that radical idea,

but it's been made radical.

And yes, we can through strengthening, you know,

education, not schooling, not getting higher test scores.

Right.

But spending meaningful time together, learning,

to be together, you know, to be, have a form of literacy

where we're reading and we're writing and we're, you know,

we're producing plays together, we're making music,

all kinds of different things.

It's not just one model of what it looks like,

but yeah, a strong public education system is, you know,

an insurance and it is an investment in, you know,

eradicating poverty.

Again, there's some systemic stuff that has to happen, you know,

but it would be there.

It would be in place.

It can, it can be the equalizer as it's often purported to be,

but not structured to have that angle.

Not structured, but like you're saying,

though, the vision of what's possible and see, for me,

when we talk about this, this is exactly why the attack

on public schools, the attack on public schools has nothing

to do with test scores, low test scores in adequacy.

The reality is is that the attack is an attack on a realization

that if truly an educated public through public schools

really was the goal of what we were doing as a society,

you would really eliminate a lot of the issues

dealing with inequities.

And you know what?

Inequities getting rid of inequities,

I guess what some people do not want to do that,

just like it's you looking like going like,

I'm sorry, but there are people that truly do not want

to get rid of the inequities in see public schools truly as,

yeah, one of the potential solutions.

And so let's attack them because actual structural inequities

keep me in power if I'm one of those people who go against that

and you sit there and go, really Tim,

that's what's behind the attack on public schools?

Yeah, just what do you think?

Yeah, I got a loud face, sorry about that.

No, it's true.

You know, if we actually have a fully educated public,

if we have a public who is informed about all of these issues

who can actually take meaningful action,

well, that reduces the power that a small number of people

do have, you know, whether you're comfortable

with the idea or not, there is a power imbalance

in this country, in this world,

and public education in many ways serves to lessen that divide.

Donnie.

Yeah, I mean, so we're all on the same page.

Yeah, it resonates.

However, you know, we're not there yet.

And there's a lot of work to be done.

And that doesn't mean when we say all this too

that we're saying, hey teacher, listen out there,

you better kick it into overdrive

because this one's on you.

You know, it's something that's part of our responsibilities,

every single one of us, it is a responsibility of all

people to be civically engaged

and part of being civically engaged

is understanding the importance of our education system.

We can only be as strong as we are there for one another

and that we understand what we need

and what others need and that we can do that together.

We talked a lot about a couple of weeks ago

and into, even into last week,

we were talking about F and with our fields, right?

Well, I'll add on to that.

Part of the big myth is you don't have the F people

over to survive.

And so that's a big shift.

So how can our schools be more around our co-existing,

our learning to listen to one another,

to learn from and with one another and have that work?

And I love to have him cap the on tonight.

What a great, I mean, any time a teacher

can share their story, we just also teach us, right?

We're learners, leading learners.

We're always all learners, educators, educators,

talking education, learning, leading learners.

Listener out there, we love that you tune in,

that you listen and that you participate as well.

So Tim, it's a pretty good Monday, if you're asking me,

we're off to a banner start this week.

Yeah, we are and you know what, too?

Getting ready, yeah.

Tomorrow, you know, rethinking schools, special editor,

executive editor.

And then Wednesday, Johnny, yeah, Wednesday,

we're going to be having a, you know,

we're going to have one of our shows.

You can participate at the show live with, you know,

hosted at the Monaco Brewing Company,

you know, who sponsors busted pencils

and that you can check out not only Monaco Brewing Company

in person, be there Wednesday, you know,

have a brew with the crew and talk to Tim and Johnny,

we're going to be on with you.

You can, you can just participate by being there, right?

So our buddy Kirk, there will be like the MC

and you can come through and participate in that show.

Hey, little reminder, listener,

stay on from my man, Pete Schwawa,

because they're going to do a Scotty Summer

at the top of the hour.

So you've got to stay on that business.

Be a winner of Scotty Summer,

listen to Pete Schwawa's show coming up next

and catch that keyword to text in, you know,

in the 7 p.m. hour.

Mm, mm, man, yeah, great gifts, great giveaways

and download that civic media app while you're out there too,

you know, that makes things easy

when you have the civic media app.

It's Tim and Johnny, busted pencils fully

letted education talk on a Monday.

Yeah, we're in here 8557524842

coming up really close.

Not going to have a whole lot of time for anybody else,

but just get that number out there.

You can give us a call tomorrow for the show

rethinking schools, a landmark out of Milwaukee.

Yeah, we're going to be talking

rethinking schools tomorrow.

The editor Sierra Keller Jones is going to be on

and man, we have got a great show planned.

So busted pencils fully let it education talk.

See y'all tomorrow.

Yeah, yep.