This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci, educated educators talking
education.
Ah, there it is, Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk, educated educators talking,
education Monday, Johnny, what's happening, my friend?
How are you?
Did you have a good weekend?
Oh, yeah, always, of course, you know, we're wrapping up the school year most places.
Some schools even out for the summer already, but you know, we're coming down to that smooth
landing that we hope all classrooms and students get to have, you know, so it's exciting to
start another week off here, special night, Tim.
It is special, but you know what, Johnny, Busted Pencils is sponsored by the Monaco Brewing
Company who sued the state of Wisconsin to end its parasitic voucher system that hurts
public schools.
Monaco Brewing Company is making Wisconsin great again, one beer at a time.
Check out Monaco Brewing Company dot com to see where you can buy their progressive beer.
And yes, great guest, Johnny.
We've had shows where we've talked about the science of reading.
She came in and talked to us before.
We're going to get a little deeper though, three queuing system.
And this makes me ask the question, I wonder what Matt Damon's mom would say about the
three queuing system.
There she is, Nancy, Carlson, Paige, welcome back to Busted Pencils, Dr. Nancy, how are
you?
Oh, I'm good.
Hi, Tim.
Hi, Johnny.
Hey.
It's good to be here.
Um, so you want me to talk to that about the three queuing system?
Yeah, yeah.
So, so in reading, we know the science of reading is now mandated it.
Would you say in 25 states required?
And what I'm seeing now a lot on social media is a lot of people are saying you're not
even allowed to use the three queuing system anymore.
And I've got what a great night for Dr. Nancy, Carlson, Paige, what the heck is three queuing
system?
Because I know a lot of people are out there going like, what is it?
It must be, you know, whatever.
Yeah.
Okay, just a little bit of context reading wars have gone on for 50, 100 years.
They've cycle through this cycle is bizarre because it's not coming from educators or
researchers.
It's coming from journalists and media people.
And we're in a time in case you guys haven't noticed where people, people grab onto ideas
you could even say conspiracies and promote them without digging deeper.
And we're, it's something happening to the whole society.
It's the complex reasons why.
But this is partly a function of that kind of milieu that we're in.
So a lot of states have jumped on board.
They've said the three queuing system is debunked.
That isn't true.
You can read the book fact checking the science of reading and find out all the facts.
The facts are in that book fact checking science of reading by tyranny and Pearson.
And you can get all the accurate information.
But the three queuing system is a has means giving children a lot of information about
how the print system works so they can figure out how to read.
And I'll tell you a little more about what that means.
But language is a complex, beautiful thing, right?
And it children learn it without ever learn to talk without anybody teaching them.
And reading to some extent needs to be taught.
But it's also in the environment and children do pick up a lot just by seeing stop signs
and signs and grocery stores and so forth.
But when it gets into schools, we want to try to help them learn in a more systematic
way how to make sense of print.
So you wouldn't just give them one little bit of information, which is phonics.
You want to give them all the information we can possibly give because their brains,
nobody really understands how the brain does this.
But it's taking all this information and trying to make sense of it in a very rapid way.
And also it's different for every child.
That's why there's not a one-size-fits-all methodology because kids learn, research is shown.
Instruction, reading instruction is successful some of the time and not all of the time in
different settings.
So a teacher has to be prepared with a big repertoire to understand how is any individual
kid making sense of print because kids are going to do it differently.
But the three-cueing system actually means, and it comes out of cycle linguistic theory
and it's something that I taught to my graduate students for years, that yes, we understand
the print system by understanding sounds and letters, also called the graphophonemic
system.
We also understand print by making sense of it.
That is to say if a child's reading a sentence that says IAA and there's a three-letter word
starting with a B, they're going to use their understanding of meaning to know, what
could that be?
IA to what?
It wouldn't be a bus.
What it?
Because you don't need a bus.
No, it would be, oh, a bun, it's a bun.
And they might actually say bun before they've even seen all the three letters because maybe
they don't even need them.
But if they do need them, they see the N and they go, oh, bun, okay.
But they also, so meaning is something that's driving, making sense of print and we always
want meaning to operate.
It's called the semantic system and the three-cueing thing.
Semantics and meaning are basically the same thing.
And then also there's an intuitive understanding of grammar because kids understand grammar
when they're talking.
They know parts of speech without knowing the name of the noun or adjective.
But that's why they wouldn't read the sentence as IAA to write because a bright, maybe
they saw the B, but they wouldn't say bright because that's an adjective and they intuitively
know that a noun would go there, even though they were never taught that.
Does this make sense?
Yeah, yeah.
Okay, so all this information that kids already have about language because having a
strong oral language background is the biggest thing to help them learn to read.
Because they have this knowledge of speaking, they already know we talk to make sense.
Why are we talking to each other?
Because we're trying to make sense with each other.
We're trying to speak meaningfully.
You wouldn't ever take that away from a speaker.
You don't ever want to take their voice away from them.
And as they learn to read, they start to use what they know about language and bring
it forward when they're trying to make sense of print.
So they're bringing forward a knowledge of semantics or meaning, grammar, syntax, and also
letters and sounds.
They already know letters and sounds, but it's very helpful to teach them phonics, especially
in the beginning, because they, they, letters and sounds are most helpful when kids are first
learning.
So all these three systems, they're called the three cuisines, that they're all operating.
Right.
Well, this turned into some crazy controversy that doesn't even have any basis in anything.
Well, because they're going to say that so the critics, the big thing is, well, when
you teach kids three cuing Nancy, all you're doing is teaching them to gas, and that's
just not teaching them reading.
Okay.
This, this whole criticism came out of a podcast called Sold a Story by Emily Hanford,
who's a reporter, not, not an educator.
And she criticized, she went to some, I listened to it, I could barely stand it.
And the people who wrote the book on fact checking said it was mean spirit, and that's kind,
as it was horrible, full of false information, misleading misconceptions and distortions
of what three cuing even is.
She didn't ever even understand it.
But they, they set this up as kind of a false dichotomy.
It's either you teach all the cuing systems or you teach phonics.
And it, it wasn't even a real, you know, dichotomy in the first place.
But the word guessing was something that one of the original psycho linguists, Ken Goodman,
used the word guessing to mean that sometimes when you read, you think about when you read,
if you're a good reader, a fluent reader, if you're a fluent reader, you are sometimes
reading a word really fast, and you don't even read it correctly, but you don't know
until you go back and self correct, right?
You don't even know you read the wrong word if you're reading really fast.
So he used the word guessing, and then it got distorted in this new political, ideological
framework to be what we were teaching kids, which we never were.
Because yeah, when you talk about this, you've got three points to the three cuing system.
And it, it sounds like a system approach to saying, you know, if you need some letter
hints, you're going to use some letter and some phonemic skills.
If you have some sense of what you're reading, you might draw on some knowledge about what
it is, you think you're reading, and so you're describing, I think, what most listeners
would say, well, that sounds like how everybody tries to learn how to read.
How does it get to the point, though, now that truly, like in my state of Ohio, and I
think you said 25 other states, it's illegal, illegal to teach three cuing system.
In other words, it's illegal to teach kids a system of how to learn to read.
That's why I interpret that.
Well, I just got an email today from a colleague who said in 25 states, children are being,
our teachers are not allowed to ask kids, does this make sense to you?
This thing you've just read.
And what I think is that the key to reading and speaking is making sense.
That's what you always want kids to be able to do.
This whole thing has gone way extreme and is real bizarre, you guys, really, it's gone
off the rails and it's getting past, even in my state, there's a bill to pass this
very thing.
It's horrifying because Massachusetts is usually so good in education.
But all the legislators are picking up on this and they're using the same words.
If you look at all the legislation in all the states, they have the same, they say,
the three cuing system is debunked.
It's not debunked.
And phonics is the only way to teach and that's not true.
There's no research to show that only phonics helps kids read.
There's no research.
Even the reading panel in the year 2000 said phonics alone wouldn't do it.
There's no research to show that.
So it's like everybody, what's happening is like minds think everyone's saying the
same thing, but it's not based in anything truthful.
This is the part, too, that's really challenging when we think about this and you say, you
know, thank goodness for Dr. Nancy Carlson Page, what would Matt Damon's mom say about
three cuing?
Johnny Lupinacci, hopefully you've been brought up to speed a little bit on three cuing
and recognizing that it's a system to help kids learn learning itself, which is very
messy.
And so the ability to actually have a system, it's going to use this to help kids learn
to read.
It's a way to do it.
Dr. Nancy Carlson Page, Matt Damon's mom, thank you so much for busting pencils with
us tonight, Nancy.
Thank you, Dr. Nancy Carlson Page.
Thank you.
I hope I helped you under.
It's a complex issue.
It's complex.
So I'm moving, boil it down in some sensible way.
Hopefully I helped.
Okay.
And we're going to bring some crazy when we get back.
Thank you.
That's not what we do.
We always sell everything you can be.
Augustus Busted Pencils.
Holy Let It, Education Talk, Education Education.
The numbers 857524842.
Dr. Nancy Carlson Page, Matt Damon's mom, the open up Jeun.
The first show in June, three cuing, system science of reading Johnny Lupinacci.
Did she teach you anything?
Yeah, I think you know, the best thing for it is being a listener and I know there's
great listeners out there catching the show, especially on a Monday where we have Dr.
Nancy Carlson Page.
We get to ask Matt Damon's mom to explain something.
I love that she broke down the reading wars.
We brought that up in a few of the shows and for a listener out there, Tim and I, we are
a doctor and an education.
We've been in the classroom on this topic for some, I don't even say how many years
now.
The idea is since the, since we were all in school, right, I can safely say that since
we were all in school, there's been this debate.
So just kind of breaking down the reading wars a little bit.
There was this debate in Tim and a past show you had brought up like since, since the readers
of like, like, what is Dick Jane and spot or whatever those early readers were like,
we were arguing, we being the people in education, we're arguing over what's the best way
to learn, to read or in a sense, what's the best way, the one right, correct way, the
children to learn.
And so there's, that's what the reading wars have been, is it phonetic, you know, is
it contextual like all the different ways and sort of, and we had given some history
around that, that's been called in the industry, the reading wars, like which is the way, right?
And education is a state right, right?
And so state to state makes legislation, you know, has committees that, that have jurisdiction
over what the curriculum is for the state.
And so, you know, reading wars have played out in our states to have legislators essentially
take up, hey, this is the, this is the way to teach reading.
We want all of our public schools to follow this, essentially follow this, quote unquote,
best practice.
And we hit an era in the 90s, I think it was where we started to talk about balance
reading.
And it was sort of like, hey, it's not phonics, it's not the words, you know, it's, we
got to learn and good teachers, and I'll emphasize this, like Dr. Nancy Carlson pages,
a great teacher and she teaches so many good teachers, good teachers have always known.
It's a combination of things, you know, we had a really great guest on, he's a radical
writer and will tease out his name, because that's a little quiz callers.
If you want to join us, 75284842, you can give us a text or give us a call.
You might remember that PT is his initials, but we'll come back to who that guy is.
He's written about this, hey, good teachers for a really long time have known that it's
a combination of these things.
So it was a little bit of like, I call it like as an educator, a breath of fresh air when
we were in balance reading, but all things we are always learning more about how diverse
children, like learn different, we're all diverse, our brains work in different ways.
There are some patterns and some trends, but it's not as simple as, well, this kid learns
phonetically and this kid learns contextually and this kid, you know, is benefiting from
sight words and we're just going to drill and kill him with sight words, you know, or
context.
One best way for all children, in fact, there's a toolbox that good teachers bring to the
job of teaching reading and within that toolbox, I love tonight that I learned what to call
some of those tools, the three queuing system, the Dr. Nancy Carlson page taught us tonight
that she shares with her graduate students, you know, and Tim, maybe give a refresher for
our listener, the three queuing system.
Can you take us through it a little bit, I know, but let's refresh a little bit because
it's like 101, what are these tools that might be in the toolbox of a good teacher?
So one is right, and this goes back to phonics, letters and letters together, letters make
sounds, letters together make words and so there is a way to learn, to look at a word, decoded,
deconstructed based on the letters you see and the phonemic sounds that go with it, that's
one part of it.
You also learn as you're reading though, there are certain words that you start to recognize,
not necessarily because you can read the word, but because of the sentence that preceded
that word has something to do with being able to predict what that word might be because
it fits the context.
And so you start to learn to anticipate words based on seeing what they look like and
also knowing how they sound and then does it make sense to fit in there and bringing
all of that together in though a message and the message that comes through and you start
to say any one of those, if that's helpful for somebody learning to read, whether it's
a phonemic approach that you can break it down and that helps you, that's great.
If you can look at and see the sense of the context that the word is being used in,
if that makes sense, you use it.
You use and so when we're teaching kids to read, we want kids and Johnny, I love the way
you pointed this out to say balanced literacy.
It's like how in the world did we outlaw balance because actually balance now is the problem.
And in fact, this is where the negative negativity of the three queuing system has come
from is is that three queuing system was a part of what they called balance literacy
in the 90s and the attack on balance literacy in putting forth what is now called some form
of the science of reading, but the big attack was on this three queuing system because
this is Dr. Nancy Carlson Page, Matt's mom said, well, somebody kind of equated it
to teaching kids to just gas or as just sit and therefore that was teaching them how
not to read.
Yeah, John.
Yeah, Tim, you're breaking up a little bit.
I think we're having an internet issue, but listener out there, wow, what a summary from
Tim.
I'm going to recap because I think this is really good learning three queuing system because
that was a term I'd heard, but I've been like, that's for the literacy teachers, kind
of like, you know, I'm going to blue collar scholar this for a minute.
You know, I'm a plumber.
I bring my plumbing tools to the job, but there are certain tools that might cross over
that a carpenter might also carry, but then they have job specific skills that they bring
their toolbox to.
So literacy and especially elementary educators who are teaching literacy all the time teaching
children how to read.
They know these tools.
For me, I'm kind of on the other math teacher, secondary ed.
I care about this, but I'm not as familiar with the tools.
So I was learning in the night.
So I'm going to recap real quick for our listener and for my understanding, Tim, you can check
for understanding.
That's another thing we're using some teacher phrases here.
There you go.
There you go.
So one, we got the semantic and what you were saying is one of the three queuing system
is word meaning and sentence context.
So I knew like Dr. Nancy Carlson pays her saying, you know, I eat a and I see B and it's
not, you know, I can kind of guess it's born because I start to, you know, the word in context.
So semantic is one, two, syntactic.
This word has always been, you know, interesting to me, syntactic.
This is grammatical.
This is like it where it's where it is in the sentence and kind of like the whole sort
of grammar placement of it.
This is the one I've always struggled the most with because I'll tell you what, I can't,
I couldn't for the longest time identify a preposition from an adjective from a verb,
that kind of thing.
And then we had the graphophonic, the letter and sounds, the phonics.
So those are the three.
Tim, now what a learning session for listeners.
If you'd like to join the conversation 7524842, give us a call, busted pencils.
We get you when we come back at the other half.
We will not be this anymore, this is the end for you, my friend, I can't forgive, I won't
forget.
This is the end for you, my friend, I can't forgive, I won't forget, oh, you know, I'm
very tired.
Our worries don't me, if we're not always tired.
I just had a tough time, I'm dead, I just wanted me to ask the question that
we let it, education talk, educated educators talking, education, and if you want to, two,
it's eight five, five, seven, five, two, four, eight, four, two, started off the show,
Matt Damon's mom, Dr. Nancy Carlson, page three, queuing system, Johnny, kind of before
this last break, really give a nice fundamental understanding, we've got an announcement, do
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Tim, because I got a question for you, man, all right, man, for listening out there, Tim
and I, we get to talk all day long, we text each other back and forth, we're chopping
it up, we're checking in with our associate producer, Jess on the board, but no, we were
having a chat today about science and reading, and I love that Dr. Nancy Carlson Page came
on, shared us some of the tools that literacy educators bring in their toolbox to teaching
children to read the three queuing system.
I feel so much more knowledgeable about that, and I feel a little bit better about my understanding
of the science wars or the reading wars now that I know there's this thing, science
of reading, and I teased his name earlier, but Dr. Paul Thomas, he comes on the show and
he talks about, hey, this science of reading thing actually isn't sound science.
It's actually a marketing slogan to kind of say, hey, here's some stuff, and this is
me being generous with this, here's some stuff that we think might be more helpful, but
you know what, we know that you know better, so we're going to try and legislate it to
be required, which means you're going to have to buy our product.
So it's a pretty, it's a pretty sneaky and powerful marketing slogan to call the science
of reading.
So we had Dr. Nancy Carlson Page on here today, you know, Bustin pencils with us and Bustin
that myth that there is one best way to teach children to read.
So kind of saying, hey, rather than just attacking science of reading, let's get into the facts,
let's get into into that.
And that was helpful.
So now we all listen, if you didn't catch it, catch it on the replay.
You can download, you know, the podcast version of the show and listen to it then.
So we're more empowered to understand there's this three queueing system, and we have this
base to know that good teachers need to be able to bring all their tools to the job
to teach children to read, not just a new set of tools that we don't even know if they
do well on the job, right?
So Pim, I got a question for you though, because we were talking about a recent conversation
you have with the school leader, I think it was even super intended.
And it kind of, I think it illuminates what this leads to if a state legislation mandates
science of reading.
What kind of stuff does that leave our school leaders vulnerable to?
So you want to share a little bit about that?
Great conversation I have with you say school superintendent, school leader.
And in the state here, a mandate of the science of reading.
And so now school leaders in the state of Ohio, not only the state of Ohio, but as you
pointed out, Johnny, there now is a approved state approved.
Science of reading curricula that my buddy, who's a superintendent, now when they go
to buy new classroom materials, they can only pick from the state approved list.
And there's there are a few there that you can pick from.
So he went in, grabbed his, you know, early elementary teachers, some literacy specialists,
formed a committee.
And as a committee, they looked at the state list of approved curriculum, and then made
a decision, you know what, of all of the approved curriculum, we're going to go with this
one here because it seems to be the best for us.
The best our teachers can choose.
We like the content.
We like the materials.
And he's like, you know, you would think, how could we go wrong?
Well, Johnny, he found out that he went wrong at least according to some of the people,
because we're now also in talking about culture, you know, reading wars.
We've got culture wars.
And right now anything woke, potentially woke is a problem.
And if you're approving anything that's woke, that could be a problem.
You would think though, if the state has already approved the curriculum, that they would
have looked in it for potential wokeness, I'm going to use that term.
Well, and you got listener, you'd be the judge of this.
But one of the stories that is that the kids would be reading in this approved curriculum
is about the God of thunder, Thor.
And, you know, Thor, if you know Thor, Thor sometimes Loki likes to mess with Thor in that.
And in this little story though, Thor kinds of turns it back on Loki and disguises himself
as a woman to trick Loki, Loki, the trickster, Thor is going to play a trick on Loki
and by dressing like a woman and disguising as a, well, as my superintendent friend found out,
parents in the school district now have labeled this curriculum approved by the state
as indoctrinating students towards and even wanting some form of a required drag literacy hour
that is now going to be part of the school.
My friend is just looking at Tim going, it's bad enough that we could only pick from certain
approved curriculum because that already takes away the professional knowledge that me,
my teachers, my committee, but we picked one that the state already approved.
And still according to the parents when they saw it, well, Thor, God of thunder,
dressing like a woman, at least to these parents saw this as ushering in a drag literacy
story hour that would be coming with it.
So this is the craziness, Johnny Lupinati, that's the story, man.
Interesting, man.
It kind of catches me off guard because I'm a little bit, well, one I'm a little distracted
by it because I'm like, man, now I'm remembering the story of Thor.
And I think for listener out there, if you know it, go and give us a call, join the conversation,
eight, five, five, seven, five, two, four, four, two, but doesn't, this is also just fun.
Let's play with it for a minute and then break it down.
But Thor disguises himself as a goddess, right?
But there you go, and then Loki has him do this as a bride.
So like he kind of goes and he does this to retrieve his hammer.
If I'm remembering him back to like, yeah, okay.
So wow, you know, Tim.
So this could be not only part of like the science of reading because I'm trying to connect
it back to that, you know, but where we're learning how to read and we're hearing stories
because part of learning to read is, you know, sharing oral traditions.
And so this is one mythopoetic narrative that it's part of, you know, school curriculum.
As are in so many states, you know, really rich, diverse mythopoetic narratives shared, right?
Oral traditions and stories, whether they're, you know, L.A.
Tom calls in from time to time, he says, you know, when are we going to get back to teaching fairy tales
and nursery rhymes, there's some real good learning and lessons embedded in those.
And I agree with them.
Same thing with we've talked about states that have legislatively, you know, implemented
and required indigenous knowledge systems into the schools where there's really rich local
stories that are part of our learning in place, right?
So this is important kind of kind of not only to learn to read and analyze a story,
but, you know, kind of brings it into this and what a sad, not a sad moment,
but I guess this is part of it.
We have, as you said, not only reading wars get in played out,
but I would say even more than reading wars as a culture war, like you said, really, come on people.
Like, are we really, are we really that worried about, you know, the stories of Thor?
And do we immediately go to how we would harm people in our community, right?
We're making an association and an absolute kind of jump to that this is going to mean
that my way of identifying and understanding life has to be the only way.
This is ridiculous to me.
So I'm sorry that that superintendent has to go through that and any school leader out there,
probably is like, yep, welcome to another day being a school leader.
There's always something, right?
But I love that.
I love that you brought out that even with the legislative mandates
on curriculum, like, like the good educators of Ohio are working with,
that there is good stuff out there that great school leaders and great teachers can find and teach.
So hopefully that school districts teaching about Thor and all the gods and goddesses and bringing in their local
mythopoetic narratives and the awesome indigenous stories of the Ohio regions, right?
Hopefully they get to do that.
But I don't know, man, Tim, I think we got a caller is it came from
Appleton, we got Cam on the line.
Cam, what's happening to our friend?
Hey, I was like thinking how team that sounds compared to like,
I think I've mentioned it before, but I'm not expecting you guys to remember,
but I graduated high school in 2014.
And I remember our libraries and the schools that I attended were pretty decent size, I think.
And, you know, some of the books that were available there that I'm sure to this day are probably still available there.
I don't think these parents would agree with them, but they refuse to pick up a book anyways.
I like, like, Orison's got card books, Ender's Game with Genocide in there.
Vinocide, which was a sequel to it that had more genocide in it.
Vance by, I think here's Anthony, pure Anthony, like, I mean, for lack of better words, those books got
dirtier and dirtier.
The farther you got into them to the point that I ended up dropping them because it was just like,
this isn't even about the Anthony more, but my point is, is that those books are considered fantasy
and sci-fi classics.
And I guarantee you, they fall under the same category, but these people are willing to cherry pick the dumbest things.
They have nothing better to do.
Cam, it is one of those things, right?
Johnny, you worry about going to the good, Johnny, jump in there.
I see you.
Well, yeah, I mean, I love what Cam's bringing on here.
And then we got a really awesome text here from Jameson in Pennsylvania, who's sharing that there,
there's a similar kind of core layer here.
And it's, and thank you, Jameson, for bringing this up on the show.
Thank you, Cam, for your call, because we're really talking about the importance and things back to the first hour,
where we were talking about, no reading, and though importance of print text, right?
And understanding our history through the stories and understanding our identity through both fact and fiction,
but through the print text, right, through literature.
And one of the really important things, man, I was kind of thinking, oh,
10, that's a sad day.
But would they really ever do that?
And then here we have Jameson from Pennsylvania, sharing a really a gem of a comment, right?
He said, this is insanity.
I grew up in North Eastern Pennsylvania.
Part of our history is the Mali McGuire's.
I also got to learn about Mali McGuire's.
So God, Jameson brought this up.
He said, a group of coal mining men who had enough of the unfair treatment and basically did some terrorism locally against the mine owners and bosses.
They dressed as women to hide their identity.
They were all hanged for their crimes.
In fact, he shared, Sean Connery was in a movie based off this.
It's not about being trans.
It's about hiding identity for other means, Sai, Jameson also followed up to say per the Mali McGuire's.
It's been eliminated from the local history being taught for the same reason Tim brought up sort of this transphobia.
He said for trans reasons.
And so, you know, I was thinking like, oh, man, Tim, maybe you're being a little hyperbolic about this.
The people really jumped to, you know, this is an issue about trans.
This is transphobia.
Here I am.
I'm corrected.
I like to see that there are not that many transphobic people around us.
But apparently we're wiping things from history based on that leap, right?
When there's a bigger, there's a bigger kind of thing here.
So Jameson, thanks for your text.
You know what Tim?
I think there's more to unpack here.
I think there's a lot more to unpack here.
But let's get to it when we come back from the break.
Give us a call 855-752-4842.
Busted pencils when we come back.
Spin out of control.
Spin out of control.
Spin out of control.
Spin out of control.
But the recovery is not the recovery.
The bigger country is coming after the other.
Spin out of control.
Spin out of control.
I tell you what, that sounds like Thor music right there.
Busted pencils fully let it education talk.
Thor, stop losing your hammer, dude.
And you wouldn't have to dress like a woman to get it back from Loki.
And then you went from nothing wrong with dressing like a woman.
No, they're not.
It's just like just gonna back you up there a little bit Tim.
Oh, you know, in that and yeah, you're right.
I mean, the whole thing and then the Molly McGuire is Jameson.
Thank you to for really pointing that out.
Again, just the subtleties made me think about going boy,
we should do a show of the things that we remember being taught
and how powerful they were.
And then putting them under today's potential woke standards
or the woke police and finding out how much of what was powerful learning for us
and now be considered woke.
And largely by taking either something way out of context
or something again to just try to illustrate and bring home a point
because, you know, I will say this though,
our friend Ethan Siegel really points out Dr. Ethan Siegel
that, you know what, public schools, it's not about choice.
And in fact, if you're going to a public school,
you are going to be part of the curriculum.
And guess what, if you don't like that curriculum,
well, in a lot of states right now that have universal vouchers,
I was thinking that Ethan would probably tell these parents,
hey, look, you don't have any complaints here
because you have a voucher available to you.
Leave the public school and go ask for what you want to be taught
in a private school because in public schools,
we still learn about four, we still learn about Loki.
And the reality of if somebody is going to make a connection
to seeing this as a trans issue,
then we're going to use this moment as a trans issue too
and also use this to elevate and talk about our trans community
and making sure how that we are absolutely not in a position
of creating as Johnny's you say, causing harm to our neighbors.
And so here's the opportunity here.
Well, yeah, Tim, and I just want to,
I want to riff off that a little bit and just say like,
also, you know what, we're going to,
like when you say the choice to be in a public school
or to exercise your right, you know,
to not participate in that public school system,
but children should be in a school
and so you can select to traditionally the private schools.
But good luck finding a private school that is also not going
to teach something as traditional and to be honest with you,
Tim, kind of like heteronormative, you know,
or miss Thor.
So I want to also back up and say,
what a wonderful opportunity for us as educators,
especially as school leaders,
to say, you know what?
We don't have to hide this.
It's 2024.
It is also pride month, my man.
There you go.
Thank you, Johnny Lubinacci.
Yes, public educators do not have to hide this.
And in fact, we don't need the story of Thor
to be trans affirming.
We don't need to hide it into anything.
We are here learning about healthy development
and that looks different
and that feels different for different folks.
And you know what, if you're folks in our community,
it's going to be a matter.
Your matter.
We care about you.
And so what a wonderful opportunity to just say,
schools lead.
And they lead by example.
So instead of being pulled into that,
this is going to be, you know, something
that's potentially transphobic or trans.
It's back out and just unapologetically say,
look, guess what?
We're trans affirming in this community.
And in these schools.
So this doesn't even matter.
You got bigger fish to fry.
You probably need a different school or different school district
because it's not just going to be hidden into the story
about Thor, you know, getting his hammer back.
Hey, speaking of getting hammers back.
Any hammer.
You can get, you can get a great beer,
a great brew in Madison at Monaco Brewing Company.
Plus the pencils is sponsored by the Monaco Brewing Company
who sued the state of Wisconsin
to end its parasitic voucher system
that hurts public schools.
Monaco Brewing Company is making Wisconsin great again,
one beer at a time.
Check out Monaco Brewing Company.com
to see where you can buy their progressive beer.
Or you can have conversations like Tim,
you and I are having tonight.
And that Jess is getting to listen to Jess.
We didn't have you much on the show tonight.
How are you doing back there?
I'm doing good.
It's been fun to learn.
There's a lot of learning today.
I mean, the fact that you go from the reading wars
to the three queuing system to culture wars
to recognizing to the literacy choices
realizing how what's going to happen
to the literacy choices, realizing how what something,
you could say is like, is this transforming trans,
you know, trans discriminating again.
And yeah, you know, Jim from Appleton is no.
All right.
So the other thing, just a clarification, Tim,
you know, we talked about a contest that's going
for folks interested in participating in that context.
You got to listen at the beginning of those hours, right?
So at the beginning of the next hour,
we'll be a code.
You get that code.
Let it rip.
And you too can win a contest.
There it is.
Johnny, you know, again,
first day of the month, Dr. Nancy Carlson,
page opens up.
She opens up the show with just such a, you know,
people are like, is that really?
Yeah, that really is Matt Damon's mom.
And guess what?
Before Matt was like a really big superstar
and Dr. Nancy Carlson,
and she's got a couple of days,
I'm just wondering,
if they pulled all the 6-perium plays
and all the classical Greek plays
because what's happening,
they produced those,
they put those online.
There were no female actors.
There were female parts,
but I don't know,
I don't know.
But I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know. hé.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
I don't know.
There were female parts
but all the actors were male.
Therefore,
they were all dressed in grey.
I know, Jim, right?
It's, it's kind of like,
you almost get pulled into going.
Is this drag?
No.
And again,
because if we were using it
from that standpoint,
John,
you, the way you put it out there,
Thor being such a heteronormative type of,
you know,
places, the whole idea is,
you know, how much more,
in one way,
you know,
affirming towards
heteroorthodoxy is Thor.
I mean, he is, you know,
the man.
Anyway, Jim,
thank you so much for the call.
Yeah, pointing this out.
It gets crazy.
You know what, though, John,
that's what we try to do here,
though, you know,
every night of the week,
Busted Pencils fully-led at Education Talk,
is recognized that what's happening
in public schools,
what's happening with learning,
all of the things that are going on
in your schools,
whether it's the reading wars
or whether it's the culture wars,
there are ways to look at these ways
that bring us together,
and how we as communities
realize and understand
that the strength of our communities
is in the strengths of our public schools,
in realizing that how we need to be committed
to their continuation,
and in fact strengthening our public schools,
and you know what,
in having diverse
literatures, diverse reading,
to really dig deep,
to understand the human experience,
that's what we want,
that's what public schools do.
They bring us home,
and guess what,
they're the bedrock foundation
of democracy.
Johnny, great guest tomorrow.
I'm just going to hint,
public,
publicization is the new word
we're going to be learning.
Thank you very much.