Transcript

Mindfulness or Mindless Compliance?

Busted Pencils · Wed May 22, 2024

This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.

Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci, educated educators talking

education.

Yes, it is, educated educators talking education, busted pencils, fully-ledded education

talk.

Right away, number 8557524842, you can call in before we even introduce a topic.

Okay, in fact, you can call in and drive the conversation sometimes, Johnny, because here's

the deal, right?

We got a lot to, we're educated educators talking education, we got a lot to say, but nothing

is more important than a listener out there who says, wait a minute, but I want to know

about, or did you hear about, we encourage you right now, not a problem.

We do not mind being off-task, unlike some of the other classrooms you've been in where

the teachers are driving you to be on task.

Tim and Johnny, we're okay with going off-task.

In fact, we spend a large portion of our days off-task, and in fact, finding us on-task

is usually something quite remarkable.

I don't know, Johnny, what do you think?

I mean, you got the look up going like, yeah, you got the look up going like, Tim, you

might be talking about yourself, but not me, man.

Yeah, a little bit, a little bit.

But I think, I think I get what you mean, too.

You got to be open to the flow of the day, and the day isn't broken down into, you know,

40-minute, 30-minute, 20-minute, 15-minute integrals of like, wow, you have to be on-task

in terms of like that whole control and that sense of things.

No, man, you got to ride the wave, you got to roll with the flow, and that's what we do.

But to me, that is on-task.

Okay.

Right.

Wait, be out there, be wavy dudes here on the radio.

Like that's part of the whole vibe is your call, you as a listener, having a question

or having a thought, you know, kicking it our way as part of being on-task, I would argue

Tim, like every day just looks a little different for some folks.

Sure.

And for me, when you start saying like, you're all over the place, I'm like, bro, I'm

blue collar scholar, man.

I get up, I'm blooded, I get suited, I punch my own kind of clock and

in terms of like, we got work to do here is the work list and less grind, man, sandpaper

finish.

Let's go.

Sandpaper finish.

Yeah, man.

It's not always smooth.

Then it's not always like fitting into, you know, five minute intervals of like really,

you know, structured activity, you know, it's got to have, you got to be able to move

through the chaos.

And every classroom teacher knows that too because, ooh, man, if you don't have a classroom

that's a little bit chaotic, then young people are not engaged, right?

And so that can tell you what, you know, it's not everything and, but, you know, what,

who keeps us on task, Jess and Anya, reducers who are absolutely making sure that we stay

where we're supposed to be because actually we can't bring, you know, we have to stay a

little bit on task here to make this show happen.

Hey, you know what, to one of the best, yeah, one of the best places too, I was thinking

about this.

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Yeah.

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Let us know what's happening out there where you want to drive the discussion because

Johnny, I got a topic tonight and you know, I know it's Educator's Amplified Wednesday.

We got a little note from Teacher Halley that she's going to be a little bit behind.

She's at a union meeting.

That's okay.

In fact, that's where we want her to be.

She'll be coming in.

Teacher Joanna has a graduation event tonight, so she's not going to be with us, but Teacher

Halley will be here and I figured I wanted to pick a topic that maybe Teacher Halley

can help us really dig into.

It's one that kind of drives me a bit crazy because I see this as something that is a real

waste of time if this is why we're doing it.

What I'm talking about Johnny, teaching kids mindfulness, mindfulness, Johnny, teaching

kids, and I'm kind of concerned that we use mindfulness, at least according to the

article in K-12 dive, it seems to me that mindfulness is typically now being touted as a great

compliance tool, a compliance tool, and that's where I'm thinking, you know, kind of given

a little bit about us being off task needing to pay attention.

Do we need mindfulness to keep us back on task to pay attention?

Or is the reality of the setting, as you point out, Johnny, so often, schooling versus

education, schooling that compliance required behavior to be successful in schooling?

Do we really want to be teaching kids mindfulness to be compliant?

Yes.

You're kind of proposing as like a word conundrum.

You're assuming that by teaching it or by requiring kids to participate in learning to self-regulate

and learning to find a balance, to come back to that, and it's a wavy day, you've got

to ride the wave, right, to have strategies.

So I'm drawing from actual mindfulness curriculum, not like you're packaged, yay,

yoga fixes everybody appropriated wellness garbage.

I'm not pulling from that, but really mindfulness practices, mindfulness-based strategies for

classrooms or even for life.

You know, I think implementing those and empowering young people, and yes, requiring

that, like, hey, I want you to try some of these, hey, I want you to learn about ways

in which you can help regulate yourself in most situations.

I think these are incredibly empowering skills.

So yeah, I kind of don't see them as like forced compliance.

Like I think to me, that's mapped on.

Yeah, I guess if it's, I mean, I guess if states and districts are saying, we're going

to force this and we're going to put it into a standardized test, it's sort of like,

well, that's not really actually practicing mindfulness.

So that, that's, I kind of get, I think that's where you're going.

Yeah, that's where.

But I like, I like the topic because those strategies are really helpful and maybe they

don't work for everybody, but they help balance and bring some, some practice to the classroom

that is about, like, how is our breathing, how are we feeling right now, how do we need

to kind of get our self into a space of regulation, or if we, I know Tim, you hate that word,

but into a homeostasis of balance, whether in fight or flight or freeze, and most schooling

is about fight, flight or freeze, or, or just kind of be doing what we expect students

to do, which is why when we started to show Tim when you were talking about being off

track, I was like, well, if you're a teacher, you're used to students seeming like they're

off track because moving around, you know, having the kind of freedom to be children is

also part of, you know, what I think mindfulness, when you bring that up, is a helpful strategy

in terms of that.

Now it gets co-opted.

Okay.

It's getting for it to end up on the practice exam or like in the bubble sheets, like, do

you know your five ways to be mindful, it's like, I can know that back to, I shared this

example a bunch of times before Tim, like, I can teach kids how to make tea and they

don't know how to make tea.

I can have them memorizing mindfulness strategies and practices, and they're not doing mindfulness.

Okay.

So that I do see that we could, if we try and force it into schooling model, school

as is, we're going to end up with that, like, maybe we have some kids who know the answer,

but don't know how to do this.

And the whole point of mindfulness strategies and practices is to empower people to be well,

to be able to be calm, to be able to be, you know, in resonance with one another and

the situation they're in.

Now I'm taking up a lot of space.

I'm going to pass the mic in a second here, but I want to add one more thing.

Because in addition to that, we also have to have caution.

And I think Tim, this is what you're also, you know, bringing into light here is, maybe

we shouldn't be calm in some of these situations.

Like, don't tell me that, like, hey, I want you to do some mindfulness right now.

But we're going to talk about, should teachers in our schools have guns, like, you can't

just say, like, hey, you're going to have a calm reaction to this because we're going

to talk about stuff that's actually not at all healthy to be calm about.

So I do think it also gets used sometimes in a really white liberal way.

Like, but we're going to be mindful.

And you're like, are we though?

Because shouldn't we be kind of freaking out?

Because you're just giving us more information that's harmful, hurtful, and about enforcing

schooling, not about empowering learners to be themselves, to be free, to sort of be

in resonance with one another and develop as children do, right?

Push boundaries, be curious, ask questions, move around, and sometimes be in dysregulation

but have adults around them who help them balance, right?

So we've talked about it too many times, but I do worry also that sometimes it's like

a band-aid on a bigger problem, like, but now we have mindfulness curriculum.

Do we though?

And is that really, are we trying to console an actual reaction to a deeper problem?

Because maybe everyone's behavior is actually appropriate for what's happening in schools.

So those are just two kind of takes on it.

I'm excited, Tim, because not only do we have each other here in Jess and Anya, but listeners

and people watching you can see, we got educators amplified, teacher Halley in the house.

I'm sorry, I'm late.

No, you're doing union, union stuff, that's important, important stuff.

So Halley, have we teed this up for you enough here?

You know, I know we're already, we're moving into where we're going to be done with our

first segment, but we're talking mindfulness.

We know that educators amplified teacher Halley and teacher Joanna are always about particularly

saying, you know, the emotional well-being of students, and here we are teaching mindfulness.

And I'm kind of trying to problematize the whole idea here, because I'm worried that

it will be one more type of behavior management system, and, you know, go, hit a little

bit.

Well, it'll get Frankenstein, because, you know, many schools I've worked in were trauma-informed,

meaning that they understood what trauma was.

But when you bring it into the system, and when you try to bring well-being into a system

that's not well or unwell, I don't know what kind of product or what kind of results

you're actually going to see if we just put it into a system that's broken.

So I don't feel optimistic.

I can make a problem.

Thank you teacher Halley.

It's busted pencils.

Fully let it educated, fully let it education talk, educated educators, talking education

with a tongue tied.

Yeah.

Behavior management or mindfulness, or can we have both of them more when we get back?

Yeah.

Yes, there are fighters left here for

sure.

Teacher Halley, Dr. Johnnie Spupinati, educated educators, talking education, busted pencils,

fully let it education talk.

The number, too, we said, call us any time, 855-7524-842, mindfulness, controversial,

or critical issue, the push to incorporate mindfulness into school curricula, while mindfulness

is often promoted as a tool to help students focus and reduce anxiety.

We need to ask ourselves, are we missing the point?

And boy, what a night to ask that question with educators, amplified teacher Halley here.

Teacher Halley, mindfulness, curricula, behavior management, reducing stress and anxiety.

Are we wasting our time?

No, I mean, so tell me this.

So like, is this more like conceptual, or like, is there somewhere someone that is trying

to implement this stuff?

Yeah.

So the piece coming out of K-12 dive highlights the reality, and they frame it to me.

They frame it well by pointing out that, you know, children, school students, teachers,

everybody, you know, the anxiety levels are higher than they've ever been.

Mental health wellness is not good.

Okay.

Framing is right there.

And so one of the ways to address that mental instability is to help students understand

how mindfulness can be used to help them in anxious moments, try to make sense of the

reality.

But when you get deeper into the article, I get more concern because it feels like the

real end result of mindfulness feels like behavior control, management systems that

says to be successful in schooling today, you need to drop that stress.

You need to reduce that anxiety because you need to pay attention and you need to behave

because we got lots of learning to cover here, dude.

So let's try, let's try some mindfulness to get you focused back on task.

Right.

I mean, I feel like schools are kind of trying to piecemeal that right now.

You know, like I always wonder why are children more anxious than ever before?

Why are children, you know, exhibiting these large mental health issues?

And I always find it interesting that one, I don't know if people ask why, but two, how

come more never like, let's look at where they are seven hours per day, five days a week?

And how is that contributing to their mental health and well-being?

Like we just don't talk about it.

We're just like the kids are on well.

And so we'll just stick little Johnny, yeah, there he is, I don't mean Johnny, we'll stick

little Billy in the calming room and we'll make sure he's calm, but then hurry back to

class because you've got reading to do.

You know, like I feel like people are trying to do that right now and we're not getting

to the root of the problem, so no, the root of the problem and check it out though.

This isn't the root of our problem.

Collar Joanne, man, loving this, Collar Joanne, what's happening to our friend?

I'd like to bring in another theme that you have been touching on in these last weeks

and related to what you're going through right now and teacher Halle's description of

Frankenstein really does apply here.

There are a number of companies that have developed a mood analysis programs, AI Enhanced New

mood analysis that has been used in schools in some Asian nations and it's almost a common

theme in some schools in China that the faces of young students will be analyzed to whether

or not their mood is upbeat, depressed, whatever if they're on task or not.

And of course we can bring up all the biases, all the problems and you folks have ably analyzed

through these last weeks in terms of AI but it's still being done.

It's being done right now because it's cheap and it's easy and a teacher who has 40,

50, 60 kids in a classroom as in some Asian nations can just do a scan and find out who's

being depressed or who's off task.

So again, I wanted to throw another monkey wrench into this whole amazing analysis.

Thanks so much for this discussion.

Paul and Joanne, we love when you throw that monkey wrench, teacher Halle's got that look

of gun.

Hmm, let me see.

I don't even, I don't get it, like I just, I don't like, how do they do that?

Well, you've got cameras in the classroom monitoring facial expressions and there is artificial

intelligence now deployed to monitor facial facial expressions that can then communicate

real-time data to somebody who's looking at going, hey, teacher Halle and teacher and

Dr. Johnny, man, they look really sad right now, Dr. Tim, you should pay attention to them.

Or wow, teacher Halle looks really anxious right now.

You should go over and give her some mindfulness tips to relieve her anxiety, be careful.

That, to me, just screams like you're going to get yourself into some very sticky situations.

Honestly, because I'm like, my mad looks different than Johnny's mad, looks different than Tim's mad.

Honestly, you know what I mean, especially if you think about like a first grade classroom,

like some kids kick, some kids cry, some kids run, some kids sit in like quietly suppress it and

battle it all up. So like, if the algorithm always says the one who's screaming, you know,

swear words versus the kid who cried, you know, I just, I think there's, like, it's sticky.

I wouldn't recommend that.

Dr. John, I'm looking at Dr. Johnny Lupinajin. He's like, no, I wanted to deploy some AI facial

recognition in my classroom. No, never did I ever say that. But the, you know, I will say,

again, you know, some of this, some of this is like, hey, I'm going to sober up by drinking more beer.

It's, it's, it's, it's like, bridging words together that, that don't fit together. They're,

they're, what do they call that? Yeah, English language arts classroom.

And I can't run. Yeah. Or like, you're stressed. You need mindfulness. Okay, great.

Nothing about this space we're in. Nothing about the structure that we're doing this in. Or,

you know, or, you know, my reaction to it is conducive to what that actually is.

You know, someone, I'm not an expert on this, but, you know, I benefited from being a student

in mindfulness curriculums and like, really thinking about schools that are going to be trauma

informed or designed in ways that meet the needs of children with ACEs, adverse childhood

experiences. And some of that is informed by mindfulness-based practices. And those are

actual things that I do see being co-opped into social emotional learning curriculums,

packaged workbooks, you know, little things and it's like, hey, because something is potentially

effective or helpful, right? You have to be committed to the whole change. Like all of that stuff,

even the, even the ACEs stuff, we can't just say, hey, we have a lot of children with

adverse childhood experiences. So here's some information about that. Now go back to your classroom

and better understand your students. It's like, that's basically saying, I'm going to give you the

words to call the problem you're already experiencing out. And in no way are we going to support any

actual change to help support that. So I think there's really great things in mindfulness.

They're not for everybody, but I think there's really great strategies. There's really great tools

and practices. But I'm waiting for them to pop up in the bubble test, Tim. And it's like, that's

not mindfulness, right? And so it's the worksheet. It's probably not mindfulness.

Wow, and that's it. Mindfulness, not mindfulness, behavior compliance, busted pencils.

Yeah, we're going to keep talking about it more when we get back.

Anyway, you want it. That's the way you need it. Anyway, you want it.

Ah, there it is. It's the way it is all the time. Anyway, you want it. Busted pencils fully

let it education talk. Educated educators talking education. Wait, is that jerk? No, that's not

journey. That's rise against some better version than the original. Yes, any way you want it.

That's what we do teacher alley educators amplified. Dr. Johnny, Dr. Tim, we are, yeah,

busting some pencils talking about mindfulness and the system of schooling and then the practice

of mindfulness. And my issue here is is that the practice and I'll say that the practice of mindfulness

is absolutely good stuff. Great things to learn. I'm putting this out though as I get concerned

about teaching mindfulness, though, to adjust and adapt to a sick system and that we're not

willing to do any of the work to adjust the system that's creating the need to use mindfulness

to deal with the system instead of using mindfulness to actually achieve a better mental balance,

a better mental health, a better way of understanding the world is is that mindfulness is

co-opted here teacher alley. Sorry. Sorry. It's for you. Okay, come with me on this journey.

I got my shoes on. Okay, so this kind of mindfulness that you keep saying I think is deducing or

like really not actually getting to like the well-being or regulation that I talk about. I feel like

when we talk about mindfulness we're still in the realm of like right the the way that our society

works and like individual achievement and individual betterment like right and that's how the

school system is set up of like you are learning individually and you are trying to climb this

ladder and reach success. So with mindfulness you will do this you know meditation so that you

can be better. So what I'm talking about and this is why I know the system has to change is that we

have to look at things more collectively of like right like have you heard about like there's this

concept of like the new happy of like happiness isn't something that like you just go get and achieve

but in our frame of reference that's what we think whereas new happy is more about like

knowing who you are what are your best gifts and how do you serve in like the world like a purpose

space maybe I'm getting a little too philosophical but stay with me see around a journey but like

this whole concept of like collectively coming together to to like connect as humans because

that's what we're missing is what's going to actually meet the needs of children you know so

and you know and so like that's why the larger system has to change so it isn't like now everybody

laid down on their mat to do mindfulness because I told you it's more of like we all agree to do

this because we want to feel better and we know it's going to help us. So mindfulness still to me

doesn't sound right or like what I'm talking. So experiencing as it or it's trying to be retrofit

into a system and I like what you're both talking about Halle and Tim here is you know Tim here

like I see this all the time in fact there's really great stuff on some mindfulness scholars and

educators who have written about this we can even have them on his guests or future talk about the

show but one I'll try and boil down a little bit of their their message is two things one it's

being neoliberalized now that's one of those big fancy words that a blue collar scholar up

Tim you described it basically we're giving you this strategy that both you and teacher Halle

talked about to make you more productive because we're only providing it because it gets us more

labor more production out of you or in the case of classrooms higher student achievement you can

raise test scores it's like bro stop chill out that's not the goal here but like teacher Halle

saying that kind of is the goal of schools right now and that's that's the dominant mantra so

so it's being retrofit and used Tim you brought this up the break too in a lot of ways appropriated

and fit on to a neoliberal and we can break that term down but basically you know teaching

our kids to be producers and consumers and to advance like teacher Halle said to be individual

in the individualistic sense now here's where the where that oxymoron comes up for listener out

there who maybe knows more about mindfulness than all of us here but they're saying they're

by screaming that's not what mindfulness is because that's the oxymoron the key piece is that

that mindfulness as a philosophy influencing these strategies or these practices is based in

interconnectedness and balance and our classrooms are trying to retrofit something that's about

finding resonance finding balance finding a way we breathe together we share space together we

coexist with all the species around us right and so that is not like the like the mindfulness

people are like wait this is not to increase productivity out of your work right this is not about

this is not about making kids better at taking tests what are you doing with this so it's more

in cultural appropriation it's like really it's like any tool can also be a weapon and I feel like

mindfulness curriculums are weaponized on children and so then we all have this like I've had it

for years I have lots of stuff I've written about and and talked about in my journey through like

why yoga and mindfulness isn't helping me be a better teacher but because it was like it was like

hey well you could do these things and you'll be better at your job and it's like when where how

and as I learned about those things I saw that they contradicted right it's like these two things

don't fit together so if we're on board as a school community or as a school system or there we say

public education system where we are going to center wellness in our teachers and in our students

it's going to look way different and then I think those curriculums complement

yeah but otherwise when they're like you both talked about when they're used for individual gain

that's one antithetical to their origin right to the purpose and then two it's appropriation and

it's just bad practice it's just not it's not going to work so then we're going to say guess what

does mindfulness stuff they didn't work yeah didn't apply yeah test scores didn't go up and in fact

probably more students were like learning technically learning and I put some scare quotes up

learning less then we get back so we call it oh well we do that mindfulness stuff and they're not

learning enough because they need to be math reading math reading math reading math reading facts

and children are not robots right totally yeah that's that's a little of my rant on it there's a

there's a rant let's go though anonymous text or though teacher Halle love that you're talking

about mindfulness as a child of educators could not agree more with teacher Halle yeah yeah

yeah it feels good to be agreed with it happens so it doesn't agree with teacher Halle's

king's neighbor he's hungry he's hungry I think about you know something that I'm really seeing is

that we're in this uh interesting like um duality right now of like you know if I were to say

what's the purpose of school I feel like there's the camp that's like you know to make productive

people in our society so that they can go work so that they can you know have this individual

achievement and then the other people are like well I don't really know what other people think

you know what I mean that like don't have a strong like but I'm like is anybody willing to be like

what's the purpose of school to like make kids well-rounded citizens to make kids feel good to make

people believe in strength you know like believe in their strengths and carry that out you know

what I mean like we don't have that language like for people to even choose that as an option

you know like I think there's real extreme people but then I think like average Joe is like yeah

I'm gonna send my kid and they're gonna do a good in school right and they're gonna go off and

figure out what they want to do but I'm like I do believe those middle people would want their

child's well-being to be addressed but there's no language for them thank yeah thank you Halle

because that's it you're right my my neighbor you know there he is again he's though but he's

like okay wait a minute I didn't know that school could be for all of that other stuff I thought

it was only about preparing my kids to get a good job to be compliant to do achievement I didn't

even know that school could be about well-being right fitting in learning how to be a compassionate

critical citizen a good neighbor my neighbor didn't even know that schooling could be about being a

good neighbor and it's interesting because it doesn't that doesn't exclude like reading writing

arithmetic you know like it's not saying and no more reading for the children you know

but I feel like people here like this well-being and they're like but then how will children

know how to read you know what I'm like no no no I'm gonna take away like skills you know

you got well-being over pick or reading you pick because you come into my classroom I'm all

about well-being you go to teacher you go to teach your Halle if you want reading

right and so I just it is probably about like you know having these conversations introducing

this language having these conversations talking with your neighbors

and being balanced in it and not being like everything isn't full-tilt I think like Halle you

enjoying to talk about that being dysregulated you have an obligation to being like a regulated

adult especially as an educator someone who's found a balance and can maintain that in a rather

chaotic space you know 20-some children in a room totally different learners totally different needs

should be kind of potentially dysregulating oh yeah we we really ought to have the kind of skills

that we're often not supported in having or don't have like learning around developing that's

really useful I mean and then supported in that structure I mean I get excited about this because

I think there's real potential in these kinds of things I'm biased of course because it's helped

me a ton as an educator who has experienced burnout who has taught in ways that were awarded

and recognized but weren't healthy and weren't well for me or for children but they sure did get

achievement up and I sure did look good but but they it really wasn't good teaching over a long

period of time it wasn't good modeling that and mindfulness I think can offer is an invitation to

rethinking how and why and I love teacher Halle that you said essentially this backs up to

what is the purpose of education because if the purpose is raising really well people who are

adjusted to themselves and want another who celebrate their differences and know their needs

and can communicate those and behave in places together in ways that work well then that's

that's different than they need really high test scores right and I and I'm reminded of like

for anyone out there thinking about this if you go to the very best schools in our country

where the elites send their kids and you see the kinds of things that they're experiencing and the

kind of flow to their day you see that we know how to do schooling well and we provide that to the

elite because it's awarded and afforded to the very best there's a classist school system

and then all the rest are just told you got to make it work in this factory model and so

you know in a lot of these ways if it's good for the very best kids in this very best quote-on quote

most deserving a wealthiest kids in this country if it's good and it's good for every single kid

and well sorry I'll offer to like you talking really just made me think about like I think

a parents nightmare would be thinking about corralling 25 first graders every day you know like

the skills that teachers have to be able to not only like get kids to be like 25 seven year olds

in one classroom but their ability to teach the math and reading and subjectively not the very

most fun things you know versus like playing outside being in nature whatever is a skill in it

of itself the problem is the system is about the teacher is in charge and you almost comply right

you know and so really if we look at it more of like what if like of course the adult in the room

is going to help set the tone you know not saying that like they just let the kids run really nilly

but if we gave kids that ownership of like you're in charge of your learning you're in charge of

how your body is your you know like introducing that language to kids young of like how can you

understand like when you're feeling stressed you know if that's the goal like to talk about this

of like how can you be in control of calming yourself down versus a system set up or like

now the teacher has to be in charge make sure these kids are out of the room and these kids are

in the room and this kid is restrained and this kid gets sent out you know like it just produces such

chaos we don't like chaos really take it any way you want it bus defences fully let it education talk

collars Susan when we get back

uh yep bus defences fully let it education talk educated educated talking education the number

eight five five seven five two four eight four two collar Susan calling from her garden

man Susan what's happening in the garden oh i'm just digging up a lot of roots out here so i'm

pushing plants in so i love digging it's very mindful as he gets me centered um but anyway i

love the show i always like the type that you have but i was just thinking about mindfulness

my kids my one set of kids who have children yeah their kids this their middle child is very um he

gets upset easily sometimes so they'll just send him out and say well okay you can go run him on

the block or do something but you gotta calm yourself down so in school setting is it's not easy to do

that so how how do teachers navigate that well what i've typically seen so thank you for calling

what i've typically seen in elementary levels is you know teachers get to know their students

and then if a student who does have more energy requires like you know that running around

or movement they'll get connected with an educational assistant or there's like a set room

they'll call it like a mindfulness room or you know that they'll like try to accommodate that

as best as they can but it is more of like a removal from the class room

not like punitively but just like you know you know removal but then once you've calmed down please

come back because that's what i always mean by like please come back we have reading to do

um as opposed to you know and that's to me like i think right given the constraints and the

system within the system that is like the best i think teachers can do because they are so scripted

and so put on a timeline of like this is what needs to happen at this time you know what i mean

like without any kind of thinking about like well what if little billy needs to take a break and what

if sandy needs to cry you know it's just like nope get to back to the curriculum so i think teachers

are doing the best that they can and they give them kids space and they understand that but then we

have assisted them that doesn't understand but that we need that space yeah and i love that

Susan's calling from the garden and and teacher howie speaks to this it's very common that so many

children not even just you know your children your child's children and and and and that young man

um this is really common and you know what if you're in spaces that allow for the the learning

space to be recognizing of different needs and i love that Susan's calling from a garden so i got

to teach with a school garden classroom garden and i had you know students got to build bikes and

they got to do energy things in the classroom where like we could have powered things by storing

up like generators by riding bikes that we built and you could move and you could be active

while we were learning together or you could take be like hey i need to move right and so we built

that learning environment around needs where we could one be in a multi-species setting to be in a

place that's not about sitting in our seat there are options to sit in our seat because sometimes we

do need to just sit and seat get something done but you can also do by moving and so or you might

need and this is teaching like i got to teach high schoolers so it's a little bit different but like

teacher howie said empowering young people to know their needs and then have that option there

like if you needed to get up and go get on a bike and burn some energy like cool is like you could

even co-regulate with people you could say hey my man like looks like you need to burn off a little

energy why don't you take five minutes on the bike not as a punishment but hey you want to go

and yes they just kind of walk over and move that now other spaces i taught in it just built up

and it land with explosions and meltdowns we were creating behavior problems all the time in schools

and i think that's by and large happening over and over again and again comes back to a teacher

howie teacher Joanna share all the time dr. Tim selecker you talk about this the teacher exodus

when teachers just had had enough like they can see that we're contributing to these unfair behaviors

and then punishing children for kind of natural responses given who they are and what they're going

through so it's really once you start to see the setup it gets really hard to be in schools and

that's on us folks and i say us like we can do schooling differently yeah i'll add to it really

depends on right the philosophy of the adults quote unquote running the system do you know what i

mean like i um you know when i was teaching like we had a set time where kids would walk every day

and then that inspired one of our friends who taught fifth grade of like she's like i could spend

an hour trying to teach this math lesson to get you know like to kids who are riled up or i could go

on a walk for 10 minutes around the black and then we can you know like and it wasn't just like

get to math but it was just more of that concept of meeting the child's needs so it just makes me

think about like what is the purpose of purpose of schooling right now i think it's about like

thinking about like how do we meet the ideologies of the adults that are in charge versus meeting the

actual needs of the kids man teacher alley will you drop that man some power power got an anonymous

text comment to either make cogs in the machine and enables kids to explore their interests and

heart you guys i think that means love you guys thank you anonymous thank you anonymous

texture johnny you may i'm wondering with this you know mindfulness and anonymous text or Susan

calling from the garden man makes me think about the potential you know what i know where we were a

couple weeks ago and where if you're in Madison you could go or if you're in northern Wisconsin i

just saw on the internet too you could pop by you know the monocle of brewing company up there but

monocle with tap house and and Madison is great busted pencils is sponsored by monocle of brewing

company who sued the state of Wisconsin to end its parasitic voucher system that hurts public

schools monocle brewing company is making Wisconsin great one beer at a time check out

monocle brewing company dot com to see where you can buy their progressive beer man progressive

beer teacher alley she's got that look like man i i could i could really head out there right now

you know you say you're oh well just just a case and it's like what the hell he's riled up she

was at a meeting before this you know what how i'm thinking like this you need to go to this meeting

before every Wednesday to bring you in with this energy here tonight just bring in the energy

and yeah man we want to we want to we want to clone that laugh because man it comes from the heart

and it's just so expressive man busted pencils fully let it education talk yeah thank you

collard joanne collard susan continue enjoying enjoying that garden work talking about really

taking care of your own mental health and well being you know anybody and johnny your relation

relating the idea to of a kids garden and schools and the ability to do this moving particularly

out of that system called schooling right man educators they have like teacher alley teacher alley

in the house loving it busted pencils hey tomorrow night Idaho it's not just for potatoes and

french fries oh my gosh that's god