Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinachi, educated educators talking education.
Ah, there it is.
Busted pencils Monday, fully-led education talk, educated educators, talking education right
away. 8557524842. Just to remind people, Johnny Lupinachi, you know, sometimes
if you forget you're on, you know, if you're out there, you're driving in your car, you're
like, I forgot the number. I want to call them tonight. Well, if you're going to call
us tonight, make sure 8557524842. If you're watching on the Twitter feed, you can text
us if you're on the Facebook feed. If you're on the YouTube, man, there are so many ways
to get the kids. And I was going to say, Johnny, don't forget about the civic media app
because, you know, when you got the civic media app, all is well as we said, our friends
in Finland wouldn't go anywhere without the civic media app, you know, because, Johnny,
Johnny, I was just chatting with a few of the finished teacher educators today. But also,
you can chop it up and you can have these discussions, especially if you're in Madison.
You can head down to the Monaco Brewing Company and have these kinds of conversations.
Busted pencils is sponsored by the Monaco Brewing Company. We sued the state of Wisconsin
to end its parasitic voucher system that hurts public schools. Monaco Brewing Company is
making Wisconsin great again. One beer at a time. Check out Monaco Brewing Company.com
to see where you can buy their progressive beer. And the last time I was in town, I got
to actually be in person with one of our regular guests here with us tonight. But Tim,
just an introduction. Yeah. Well, hey, it is, you know, it's a Monday. It's the third Monday.
That's Wisconsin Public Education Network. It is their regular time. Always leading the
pack. Heather Du Bois, Renee, she's there making sure. But she brought a special guest today.
We're going to talk about this. I just want to, you know, hey, we are going to delve deep in
the critical issues facing public education tonight. We are focusing on the dire, dire financial
straights of Wisconsin Public Schools, despite an increase in state funding.
Graphs and thinking, it's leading to painful cuts. Our guest is Christopher Saldana,
and a system professor of K-12 education, leadership and policy analysis at UW-W Wisconsin,
Madison, whose research sets light on the intricate relationship between school finance
and educational opportunity. Chris, Heather, welcome to Boston pencils. How are you both, Chris,
you first? I'm good. Thanks for having me. It's really exciting to get to talk about these issues
that I think are super important to educate kids. And Heather, you, okay, we're going to let you.
Are you going to lament this being a Monday? Are you going to come on and go like, I got this
Monday, Tim. It is a Monday, but we got this. I'm really glad that Chris is here to join us tonight.
I'm excited to dig into some of the many reasons why it's necessary for us to have a regular
slot on this show, because there's just so much going on with Wisconsin Public Schools.
And Tim, I got a fact check you right out of the gate. We didn't really get an increase to
school funding in Wisconsin, because for the 16th year in a row, we don't even have a budget
that keeps pace with inflation. And even though more dollars went in, so much of that went to
private and charter schools that public schools are just left with the crumbs like usual.
And I'm going to drive this point home. But if it doesn't keep pace with inflation,
it's not an increase. It's a cut. So let's call it what it is. Thank you, Heather. That's why
you're on this show every third Monday to make sure the fact check me, because I play loose with
the facts. That's what we do here. No, it's a bit, you know, we don't actually, we don't,
John, John, no, we don't, but you don't want to turn it over to AI and Tim gets the race. No,
no, no, no, because the the technicality though is what I put out there is true. What Heather's
pointing out though, which is the reason for why we are having another show like this tonight.
And having a guest like Christopher Saldana is because school finance is murky is weird. We
don't know. Somebody tells us one day we're going for cuts. The next day, somebody says it's the
historic investment ever that has ever been given by any state at any time in my neighbor.
I'm going to talk about my neighbor has had it does not know what they're voting for. Never
understands whether or not they should be voting yes or no. They don't understand why they
have to vote yes or no, because every month they pay their taxes the way they're supposed to.
All of this Chris, okay, public education, school finance 101 is best you can.
How do we get to the point? How do we fund public schools? And let's just say we're in Wisconsin,
in Wisconsin, a student goes to public schools. The average, we typically talk about this,
how much it costs to add to educate a student in the year, okay? And we hear a certain number,
that number, where does that money come from? How do we get there? That's a great question.
So part of the way that schools are funded, there are three streams usually and I'll try to make
this as simple as possible and I know we only got an hour, so I will take you on.
Well my, because my neighbor's going to not listen unless you get to it Chris, because he's got
stuff to do man. That's right, historically schools have been funded by local property taxes.
So that's where the vast inequity comes from is the fact that we have such great differences
in the wealth that exist in different communities. Over the course of time states and the federal
government have started to chip in, but they have not chipped in anywhere near where they need to
get to the point of offering every kid anywhere in this country. The opportunities that they should
be afforded. What often happens is that kids who live in wealthy communities, who have wealthy
parents, they get all of the educational opportunities that they need, they get the tutoring,
they get the access to technology, they get the access to the highest, the most experience,
and the highest qualified teachers. It's the students who live in the communities where poverty
and racism is most concentrated that have the fewest opportunities. And those communities also have
the fewest, the least wealth. So when we place the burden on these communities to try to raise funds
for their students' educations, there's only so much that they can do. And so when we talk about,
when Heather talks about what the state's role is in educating students in funding public schools,
it really is to provide that additional level of funding that will allow communities that don't
have access to the wealth that other communities do, to do things like higher experience teachers that
are qualified to hire counselors. Let me ask this question, Chris, so too, just to get you right
there. So what, so the first, if we're going to think about it in pots of money, so local taxes,
what you're saying. And so I have 100,000 or how a percentage of my house is then thrown into
the local public schooling. And so then what you're talking about then, then the number of houses
in a district and the wealth of those houses then calculates into that's the local contribution
then. And so I think the way you explain that then Chris is to say, and so you can imagine in communities
that have big million dollar mansions and in communities that might have very low home ownership,
then the local contribution is is wildly different, wildly different. Yes. And if you think about
the percentage of a million dollar home, the wealthiest communities can tax themselves at much
lower rates. They don't have to have to have these exorbitant tax rates to be able to fund public
schools. They can have very low tax rates and do much more than communities that have fewer that
have less wealth. They have to tax themselves more to and they can't even get anywhere near what
the wealthy communities have. Okay. Yeah. Just want to get that just so we understand. And so that
right away then, as you said, is that the it's a disparity right off the right off the bat because
we're facing that. Okay. Okay. Now, what are you talking about the state and Heather's,
you know, always wanting about the state not doing the work they're supposed to do? Heather,
I'm sorry. I just, there's no lie there. I'm always wanting that 24 seven. It's all I
wind about. I think maybe the best way to talk about the state's role is to give you a hypothetical
example. You have three different school districts. One school district is very poor and they are
contributing to their local schools through local property taxes, but they can't get to the
amount of money that they would need to be able to educate kids in the way that the state requires.
Right. The state imposes on every single school district within it some expectations,
some standards. They say you have to educate your kids and they have to be able to pass in our
current system standardized test scores and they have to be able to meet these standards. So
this very poor school district puts in some money from the example that we talked about.
Taxpayers are paying there, but they can't raise enough. And then you have on the other side of
the spectrum, a very wealthy school district that doesn't need any help whatsoever. They have
enough money in their local community to put in all of the dollars that they need to provide all
of the resources that their kids need so that their kids can meet all of the expectations that are
placed upon them by the state. And then you have maybe one district that's somewhere in between.
Right. They can kind of get close to the bar in terms of the amount of money that they would need
to provide the kinds of resources that they need for their kids.
What the state's role is thought of today in terms of policy is that the state is supposed to
provide the to fill the gap. Right. We talked about the low income district. They couldn't make
it all the way to the amount of money that they would need to meet the state standards. And so
the state comes in and fills in whatever money the local community isn't able to raise.
And that's kind of their role. They're supposed to provide that additional funding,
and they're supposed to be consistent over the course of time. Right. This is a constitutional
standard. Every state within the United States has within their constitution some provision that says
we need to provide kids with this standard of education. And then with that, they have to meet it.
The problem is is that in order for us as citizens to find out whether the state is meeting it,
it involves litigation. It involves constant checks. Right. We can kind of do the eye test. And we can
say our kids aren't doing well. What's going on. And then everyone starts to point fingers. And
I teach a resource allocation class. And I don't know if you've ever seen the Spider-Man meme
where all the Spider-Man are pointing at each other. Right. That's that's the kind of stuff that
happens in public education is that everybody starts pointing fingers at everyone. But really,
it is the state's constitutional responsibility to provide public education for every kid within
its borders. Right. Wherever those kids come from, whatever languages those kids speak,
whatever disabilities they may have, whatever their socioeconomic status may be,
the state has made a promise, a commitment, that they will provide public education at a high
quality. And so that it's free for every kid within its state.
It's Boston pencils fully. Let it education talk. Wisconsin Public Education Network,
Third Monday, and our guest, of course, Heather is here. And Dr. Chris Saldana University,
Wisconsin Madison helping us figure this out because man, my neighbor came in and said,
Tim, when you get the show going tonight, make sure he helps explain what's coming out of my
pocket and what needs to go. Boston pencils fully let it education talk. Hey, if you have a question,
give us a call, make sure you understand. We want to know, Boston pencils, school finance 101,
when we get back.
I hope it works.
You hear us coming back. Boston pencils fully. Let it education talk. Educated educators talking.
Education. The numbers eight five five seven five two four eight four two. School finance 101.
Wisconsin Public Education Network. Heather, she's here. And special guest, Dr. Chris Saldana University,
Wisconsin Madison, assistant professor at leadership talking to us, helping us get through this whole
thing, school financing. So we can really get to quote the facts. We were messing around in
their Heather was saying, you know, don't let the facts get in the way of the truth, putting it out
there going, okay, is it a historic investment? Is it actually an underfunding? And we got to get
at this to truly understand. And I said, you know, my neighbor, we talk about this, you all have a
neighbor who's trying to figure this out and wanting to know, you know, especially the neighbor
who's going like, I'm doing everything I'm supposed to do. I love my public schools. I want to make
sure that things are happening. So Chris, you were talking about saying, okay, so right away,
my neighbor who owns real estate is paying a percentage of that part and that goes to their
contribution. And then, but the the number that we're trying to get to, though, is you're saying
is set by a bar of an expectation of saying, here's what a great education in Wisconsin should look
like. And then here's how much it will cost. Then based on how much it will cost taxpayers,
here's how much you got it to. And then when it doesn't get to the full amount, the state's
responsibility, let's not even call it responsibility, the reality, the law, the Constitution says,
state, you come in and fill in the rest if we don't get there because every student, every child
in the state of Wisconsin, according to the Constitution that you all legislators are holding up
and enforcing is that yours to make up the difference. Okay. And then Chris, does it ever happen
that the legislature doesn't live up to their promise? Once in a while. Yeah, I think more often
than that's usually and it's interesting because we're talking about Wisconsin, but this is really
a national problem. Yeah. States all around the country. They try to avoid this issue of funding
public schools. They constantly do it over and over and over. And I think Heather mentioned this
at the very beginning. The cost of public education is has skyrocketed. And this is because we now do a
better job, for example, of educating kids. That's just one aspect of it. But we now also do a better
job of identifying kids with disabilities. In the fact where we didn't and we serve them better,
we now do a better job of serving kids who don't speak English. We provide them with greater
programs and resources. And the thing that I think folks who criticize how much schools spend
often neglect is that schools are a human-centered organization and institution. We need people in
schools to educate kids. And it just so happens that paying personnel is expensive, right? You can't
put in a machine or a computer to create and foster the kind of learning environments that skilled
teachers can create. So it's just one of those things that is continuing to rise and cost. And that
funder or that the state funding mechanisms haven't kept pace with.
Johnny Lupinacci. I love being here as a listener, as a learner, as somebody, you know,
cheering us on because I couldn't agree more with, you know, always what Heather's bringing to
the show. But also, Dr. Southownia tonight, what a great guest we have for our listener out there.
It was like, hold on, wait, it's a constitutional responsibility for states to fund schools. But
then I keep hearing about all these underfunded schools. So now if I'm listening and, you know,
I'm rehashing this because in our world, we experience this like Dr. Southownia. So we experience
this state to state, right? We're constantly negotiating and and and too often begging for crumbs.
And I think one of the last shows Heather reminded us like, let's stop asking for the bare minimum
because it's just not enough. When we know we can do better, we ought to be funded and able to
do better for all the children in our public schools. That's the function of a strong public
school system. And it's the better off of a strong democracy. It is the strength of our nation
to have all of our young people learning and learning well to be all the diverse things they're
going to grow up to be and contribute to our local economies and to our national identity.
And yes, our national identity is a diverse one, right? And so having Dr. Southownia here,
explaining it and breaking it down, but also knowing his work that it advocates for this kind
of equity and education, right? And I'm coming back to this. It's a constitutional responsibility
of a state to provide a quality and equitable education to all children and that that's not
inexpensive. But that keeps getting farmed out. Like states keep somehow getting to shirk out
of funding that. And it's beyond frustrating, right? We're all pretty frustrated with it,
fed up with it. But listener out there, you know, it likely then falls to you, right? It already
is our responsibility and a democracy to contribute to the tax good of our states and our nation.
And then those tax dollars then get dispersed, right? Equitably, ideally, and we've seen too often
not school funding has not historically been been fair or equitable. But in the in in a perfect
world, right? Our state budget adequately funds our public schools and those dollars come from,
you know, a tax base. And it's a little bit more diverse than just individual tax on our,
you know, on our state income or our sales tax. But I'm simplifying it. But yet there's been a
historical shift in a move, right? To say, let's let's move away from the state funding it
as much. In fact, they've reduced how much they've given percentage wise and then put it on
local communities to say, well, if you want good, strong public schools, it's up to you.
And I think that's been divisive. And Tim, I think when you talk about your neighbor,
that's where your neighbor is like, wait, aren't I already paying taxes? I don't agree with that.
Like our state should be holding up its constitutional end. But you have they've kind of shirked
out of that and shifted attention to individuals and saying, well, you know what, if you want your
schools to be strong, it's up to you. So we'll put you in this position to sort of ask for money
locally. I think there's there's two major policy changes that the state has made that are
directly related to public education. One is you are all have already mentioned it. The shift
towards school choice, the voucher movement. One thing that state policymakers have tried to do
is to say, we aren't going to adequately fund your public schools, but we'll give you a choice.
And if you want to exit them, then here you go. Here's your ticket to be able to get out of public
schools. And then the other thing, Johnny, when you're talking about the tax structures, right,
even when you think about the nature of state taxes and the nature of local taxes, we've talked a
lot about property taxes. State taxes are usually funded in more progressive ways, right?
Things like income taxes, right? It's usually the most wealthiest folks in a state that are
contributing to the money that's going to the state that then gets redistributed to communities
around the state. So in both instances, the state has just shirked its responsibility
and just made it so that those with the least resources are being asked to do the most,
Timmy, what your neighbor. It's true. They're paying their taxes. And then at the same time,
they're being asked to do even more. And even in the gaps that they're filling with these referendum,
this isn't getting kids to the kinds of education that they deserve. This is barely, barely,
barely, barely meeting minimums. Adequate is a baseline. It's not even close to what we want.
Man, Heather, where do you find this guy, man? He's coming in there, Wisconsin Public Education
Network Monday, Dr. Chris Sadania. Yeah, Heather, you guys were named bringing in a guest, Heather,
we're going to get, you know, for there, get to you because you got some explaining to do where you
found this guy here. But I tell you what, I can hear it in the background. I hear that. I know
the music is going to say something about it. I don't want to be here anymore. We want you to be
here more though. More when we get back. Dr. Chris Sadania, we want you to be back. We want you
to be here way more. See you in a minute.
Here, ready, more, I don't want to be here anymore.
Vast Depenials. Oh, yeah, let it. Education talk. Educated. Educators talking. Education. And,
yes, it's Wisconsin Public Education Network Monday. Heather, where did you find this guy,
this Dr. Sadania? Come on, get, you know, let us, let us in on the secret. Where did you get him?
Yeah, I'd love to. I was just hanging out in a Zoom with a bunch of policy nerds, like I do.
And Dr. Sadania was invited to talk to us about the topic of adequacy in Wisconsin School
Finance. And I thought, okay, here we go. You know, I was prepared for a bracing round of
hearing the facts and getting bored out of my mind for an hour and then walking away. And he just
brought the issue to light with such clarity and focus that I immediately followed up with a
request if he could do a public version of the presentation that he made to that group because
we're always looking for someone who can get out of those weeds and into the heart of the matter.
And like explain, well, what does this mean for kids? What does this mean for communities? How
does a disqualizing school finance structure actually impact the way we live our lives? And I
just recognized right away that he had a really rare gift for explaining that in a way that makes
sense to your neighbor, Tim, who's always, you know, coming and blaming the wrong person and
pointing at me. They're so cranky. Yeah, they're, I mean, they were so cranky sometimes. I mean,
you know, but, but that's why yeah. So, Chris, Dr. Sadania, all right. So I think we're getting to
the point where we understand taxes, real estate taxes, how that works and contributes to a,
a number that we're supposed to get to because that number that we're supposed to get to is
driven by a standard that we set by saying, here are, here are, here's what we want from all
kids. And here's the success level that we want from all kids in the state. And it's going to
probably cost about this amount of money to get there because we've decided that this is where
we want to get to. And so I pay some real estate taxes and then the state's responsibility. And
I really, I get in that word responsibility makes it sound like, oh, you know, they're just not,
they're very irresponsible. They're very irresponsible. How about no, you're breaking the law.
Let's let, you know, you're breaking the law. You're not irresponsible. Okay, you're irresponsible
when you don't put out the garbage the night before. You're irresponsible when you don't feel
the sugar for the next morning for your mom when they're coming down to have coffee. You're
breaking the law when you don't fund schools the way the constitution of your state in Wisconsin
says you're supposed to do. When that happens, then, Chris, we talk about this in this state doesn't
when the state breaks the law is that then what triggers a referendum. Sometimes, sometimes.
Yes. And so part of what happens in Wisconsin is that many, many years ago, I think this was in
the early 90s. We talked about how the costs of schools were rising, right? Teachers would need
it to be paid more because things were getting more expensive. Schools recognize that they needed to
have more counselors. They needed to have more paraprofessionals. So the costs of schools were rising.
And state legislators in the 1990s decided that they needed to do something about these rising costs,
right? One way to think about them is yes, this is good. We're doing better by our kids.
Another way to think about which is the way that the state legislators thought about it in the 1990s
is that our schools are spending and their spending is out of control, right? And so they
implemented this new law, this new policy called revenue limits. And what revenue limits are they
capped how much school districts could spend or how much revenue they could receive. It's essentially
a spending cap, though. And that spending cap decides how much state funding and local funding
school districts can receive. And so what referenda are is a request on the part of communities,
of local communities, to say, of school districts are asking their communities, can we spend a
little bit more than what our revenue limit is? They are going to their communities, their voters,
and begging to spend a little bit more because the amount of funding that they're getting currently
isn't sufficient to meet the needs of their kids.
Begging to raise taxes on ourselves so that our kids have what they need. I mean, how desperate
does it get? I mean, it's the most unethical way to do school finance. It really is.
I hella, man, exactly. And this is, so this is why, again, for Dr. Sardinia to be on tonight,
is to help people understand, too, that why this does happen. And it feels like, too, on
this one, it's like, okay, so, man, it's back to us to make sure that the kids get what they need
because the legislature and the legislatures have decided to do this by some kind of goofy kind
of, you know, magic that they do. And then they turn it into, well, the schools are just out there
drunk and spending like sailors, you know, out there. And no, nothing's that's BS, you know.
And we sit there and then you sit down though. And I can see, though, to the take the point of
you. So going back all the way back to where you started, Chris, then in wealthy districts, right,
the ability then to tax themselves more or to put more in doesn't always always happen,
but they're much more able to. And then when you go to a community that's already putting in all
as much as they can and you're asking them for more kind of when we had say yes to MPS, the Milwaukee
public schools, people in that too was just to provide funding for the essentials, nothing extra.
But yet to fund the essentials, it still had to go back to the taxpayers to say to themselves,
yes, we want to tax ourselves more because the legislature won't do their jobs.
That's exactly right. And I think there's there's one other thing that I think I should point out
when we're talking about revenue limits and referenda is that many listeners will remember the
great recession, the financial crisis that happened during 2008, 2009 and 2010, what the state
legislators did during that period was to what's called decouple. So they removed this
requirement that the revenue limits increased by and by the rate of inflation. And so that already,
the amount of funding that states were going to or that the state was going to put into public
education is already decoupled from what the actual needs are. So the costs have been rising,
everything has been getting more expensive and the state just hasn't contributed. It's part.
And then when we think about districts, I think Tim, the point that you made is a really important
one to make is that districts are different, right? And the state can say, well, it's up to you.
You can decide if you want to spend more on public education, but some communities just don't have
that wealth that they can just pull on. It's not like they live in the mansions where someone can
just pay a little bit more and it's not so much out of their pocket and then they're going to fund
great schools. These are folks who like your neighbor or like other folks around Wisconsin are
already doing their part and paying a huge amount out of their wallet. And then in many occasions
saying yes, I will pay even more to provide the funding that my schools need, but it really isn't
a sustainable approach to funding public education. We really do need to have structures and systems
in place that are going to provide state funding for public education. Yeah, I love that. I love that
Dr. Seldonia and Heather, both for this, maybe you can speak to this. So where do we go from here?
Like, what's the move? Because I'm sure listeners probably like, man, I get it. This is clear.
What do we do about this? I'm going to defer to Heather because I know
you know, I mean, while we're pointing fingers at the state, let's just trace them all the way
to the ballot box. We have the opportunity this summer, this fall to go to the ballot
box to vote on those school referenda to provide a stopgap solution, you know, put a band-aid on
this bleeding wound for the districts that we live in. But we also have an opportunity to elect
better leaders and people who are going to take that constitutional charge that they pledge when
they take office more seriously and do right by our kids. And I don't care what letter they have
behind in their name. All of our elected officials need to need to prioritize that constitutional
responsibility to making sure that our schools are providing an education that is as uniform as it
can be across all of our schools. And right now, the entire system is set up to prevent that
uniformity. The revenue limits are nuts. They don't correspond to student need either. You know,
they were arbitrarily set 30 years ago. And they need to be revisited. We don't want to preserve
that for the next 400 years. We want to fix this now. And our kids are only going to be kids right
now, right? Time is not on our side and we have to move fast. So I encourage people to make an
informed decision when they vote. But also to get involved locally, find out why your district is
going to referenda. Join a local group like the ones that work together through our network
across the state and do what you can to educate communities, explain how this works to people
because it's very confusing. But most of all, just put your votes where your passion is and do
what's right for kids yourselves when you go to vote. Man, I thank you Heather for putting
in that out there like that. And you say, yeah, we do, you know, people have a choice in the big
choice that you point out here is at the ballot box. And you say, not vote, I mean, the referendum
is a choice at the ballot box. But the ballot box of going, okay, like does your legislator,
yours, yours, your communities, do they follow the law? Do they uphold the law or do they
break the law? Because if they're breaking the law, guess what? You have a choice to get them
out of there, move them along, say, sorry, at a minimum, we have a minimum requirement here when
we vote for legislators. And one of the minimum requirements are that they uphold the law. And so
their legislator is out there across Wisconsin, across the country. If you're not doing your job
in enforcing the law, making sure that the law is followed, if you are, you know, jumping,
breaking the law, hey, oh, breaking the law, man, a little Judas Priest there, right?
You know, breaking the law, breaking the law, it's just, hey, vote them out, man, because
and then this whole referendum talk maybe could be a whole different conversation because the
reality is is that the reason we go to referendum, again, it comes back to these legislator's
and the system they've set up and Chris, right, you were talking about, we've got a system problem.
Yeah, I think Heather, I think Heather said it perfectly. Reprenda are abandoned, right? And this
is a big, big wound. And referendum are a tiny little bandaid that kind of cover up this wound.
When really what we need to be thinking about is how do we provide more funding for kids who are
learning English, emerging bilinguals, which the state does horribly. The state provides
so little funding for kids who are learning English, the state provides so little funding for kids
with disabilities and special education. I think that's one of the biggest problems that if you
ask school district administrators now, superintendents, principals, when you ask them what the
biggest challenge is, is that they don't get enough funding from the state. And so now they're
having to subsidize their own special education funding, which is, or their own special education
programs, which are programs that are federally required and state mandated, right? And they should
be, right? We should be providing public education for kids with disabilities, but they now are pulling
from kids in general education classrooms to provide for kids in special education. So that's how
bad it's gotten is that districts are pulling from every which way that they can to try to make do
and provide for kids in their schools. And the sad part is is that they're they're unable to do
it and it's for all kids, right? It's not just any particular kid within these school districts
that are in the in the districts with the greatest need. All of those kids within those school
districts are having educational opportunities robbed from them.
Busted pencils will be let it education talk 857524842 is the number Wisconsin Public Education Network Monday.
Heather Du Bois-Bernayne, Dr. Chris Sadodania, University of Wisconsin, Madison,
Heather, I'm listening. My neighbor has just sent me a note saying I need to find out more
information, where do I go? You can go to Wisconsinnetwork.org to find out more about all of this.
Get links to the information you need to understand how school finance works. Look at our map and
find the public education advocacy group nearest you and send them a note, join them, connect,
get involved, get engaged. We also want to invite folks to join us this summer July 30 to 31st at our
annual summer summit, where we're going to be bringing folks together from across the state
who are sick and tired of being sick and tired of this and ready to do something about it and we
hope that Dr. Sadodania will join us there too and that you all can ask him your questions in
person and find out what is really going to take to move the dial on this because it's going to
take a lot more than just a few people understanding the problem. The problem isn't that we don't know
what's wrong. The problem is there isn't the will to do what's right and we can fix that. We can
fix that immediately if we could force the will to. Man, check it out though. So in July, make sure
everybody is heading out to the Wisconsin Public Education Network. Chris Heather, thank you so much
for busting pencils with us tonight. And yeah, you hear it. No, you're right. Everybody,
Johnny Tim, let me get back.
Busted pencils fully-ledged education talk, educated educators talking
education numbers 8557524842 Wisconsin Public Education Network Monday
super guest there, Johnny, Dr. Chris Sadodania. I mean, just really able to take this whole
school finance thing, which really is something that can be really weedy and really murky when you
get into it and can really turn people off. You know, we say we always talk about my neighbor,
but because you know what, there are people out there that need to understand this and so often
when it comes to understanding things related to finance, I think what happens too is that because
of the complication, right? People then intentionally make it sound almost like you can't really
understand this. And so therefore, as we started the show, Heather's like, you know, when I say
historic, you know, upward investment, well, the reality is, no, that's not really true,
Sam, that depends on who's writing this. It shouldn't have to depend on how you put the facts
out there to get to the truth. The facts should be the truth. The reality around school financing,
what we're hearing here is this said, man, we're not really talking about the truth, but what Dr.
Sadodania did for us is really helping say, okay, wait, truth, real estate taxes, property taxes,
we pay for those, sure, there's a certain amount of money though that that that we can give,
you know, you have a hundred thousand dollar house, you have a million dollar house to figure it out.
And then the state says, we want to educate all kids, we want to educate all students with learning
difficulties, all students with different disabilities, all students, despite regardless of what
their parents bring to the table. And then we set a standard and we say, okay, this is how much money
it's going to cost in the state. It's your it's your it's the law for you to fill in the gap
that's missing there. And what we're hearing is is that, you know, so when you hear referendums,
no, the state didn't do their job, they broke the law, the state broke the law and didn't follow
the constitution. Yeah, Tim, and it's great that our guests and I pointed out schools are backed
into a corner. Referendums are like Heather said, you know, they're bandaid on a fatal bleeding wound.
And so, you know, here we are, we're a school or we're a district that we don't have we don't have
the budget or the money to keep to keep schools open to keep schools even adequate, not excellent,
but adequate. And so referendums become an imperative to just get by. And that's being backed
into a corner. And I like what they both say when I asked them what the move was, right? So
listener out there, let's recap that. It's legislative. It's advocating not only not only do we
need to vote for these referendums as a short term fix, but we need to hold our legislators accountable
to actually supporting public schools, right? To them having a legitimate long term plan that
upholds what Chris, you know, Dr. Seldonia shared today with us, which is important is it's
constitutional law in the state, but think about it like this. It's a promise, right? And in
democracy, trust is a core democratic value. And we ought to be able to trust our government. And so
it is up to us as voters and the, you know, the public to hold our legislators accountable to being
trustworthy, especially when it comes to education. That is a nonpartisan issue, whether you identify
as a Republican or a Democrat or somewhere in between, you know, we all ought to land on, hey,
these are public schools. This is an absolute essential. This is a baseline. Let's fund them
adequately at the state level. So we don't have to parse this out and fight about it where
those who are in the position to not be able to give the most are asked the most. It's absolutely,
you know, as someone guest last Monday said, she was talking about assessment backwards.
I'll borrow from her in that first three letters of that first word assessment.
So, you know, it really doesn't fit in. Well, and I like that they reminded us we need short-term
support and long-term plan. And so listener out there, that's really important. Another thing
that I thought was really helpful is they pointed us to where as a listener, if I'm, if I'm
vibing with this, this is really clear, how do I help? Well, if you're not in Wisconsin, you know,
if you're in Wisconsin, connect with the Wisconsin Public Education Network, WPEN, but there is a
national, like a national organization, right, for public education, right? And we, you know,
they have a great resource within their materials about, you know, the NPE network,
national public education, network for public education. And they have a local, state,
national grassroots education network on their website. You can find your state, you can click on
you can see the organizations doing the kind of work like our guests, Heather was doing and the
doctor still down you spoke to you tonight. But if you're in Madison, Tim, you can head on to the
Monaco Brewing Company. And you can, you know what, you can get your beer there. You know why,
Johnny, because busted pencils is sponsored by the Monaco Brewing Company who sued the state of
Wisconsin to end its parasitic voucher system that hurts public schools. Monaco Brewing Company is
making Wisconsin great again. One beer at a time. Check out Monaco Brewing Company.com to see
where you can buy their progressive beer, grab a beer, sit down there and put together a game
plan while you're at the Monaco Brewery about saying how we're going to get out the vote here to
the reality of saying like, yeah, Johnny, the responsibility in a democracy then is if the people
who are supposed to represent you, your group. Okay, remember, we live in a representative
democracy. The reality here then is is that people are supposed to represent the sense of the
people who elected them. When that doesn't happen, the people that elected them then get to go
back and say, sorry, you're out. We're putting someone back in. And what a great place to do that
at the Monaco Brewing Company's tap room in Madison. You can get together. You can organize groups
and then go out and do a little bit of knocking on the door. Get that vote out because,
look, we're talking about truly upholding the law. Johnny, you pointed out in this not just
in Wisconsin. In every state, public education is a constitutional absolute. It's not a negotiable.
It is nothing to do with whether you want to or not. It is the law. Okay, and with that. Don't be a
promise breaker. So that's that simple. You make a promise and whether you made that promise
individually or collectively by joining the government because it is constitutional. So when you
take that oath to represent whatever district or wherever you're elected to be a representative,
you've taken on that responsibility to advocate for public education. So don't be a promise breaker.
Right. So legislators don't be promise breakers. Folks out there. Listener. Don't vote for a promise
breaker. Demand action. Right. Fully let it education talk busted pencils. It's Monday. We got a
great week ahead of us. Tim is good to chop it up with you tonight. I always love being here.
Johnny Lupinati. Yeah, man. Trending news Tuesday educators amplified Wednesday.
A special guest from Idaho on Thursday. Yeah, I know. I know. Bring your bank potato with you on
Thursday. See y'all tomorrow night.