This is Busted Pencils.
Fully Letted Education Talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker,
and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci,
Educator's Talking Education.
Welcome Monday Night Busted Pencils.
Fully Letted Education Talk.
Educator's Talking Education.
The number 855-75248-4285575248-422.
Johnny Lupinacci, weekends over, my friend.
Welcome back.
Yeah, it's Monday, and here we are, Busted Pencils.
I mean, it's always excited to have the week ahead of us,
but to start the week with a special guest tonight is extra.
So Tim, let's dive right into it.
We have a great guest with us tonight for listeners.
Yeah, Dr. Kevin Kumashiro, and we'll give him the title.
He's been on the show before I know people listen and go,
really Kevin's back?
Yes, we got Kevin back.
We somehow managed in the middle of doing all of the diversity,
equity, leadership, inclusion work that he's doing.
We grabbed him, though.
He is now the interim dean of the School of Education
at Hofstra University.
Dr. Kevin Kumashiro, welcome to Busted Pencils.
How are you, Kevin?
I am doing well.
And Tim and Johnny, two of my favorite people,
what an honor to be back on Busted Pencils.
You know, I listen to you all the time,
and I hope all of your listeners, especially your new ones,
are going to write this down every evening, join Busted Pencils.
It is, and we appreciate that kind of support, Kevin.
Love it.
855-752-4842.
Kevin, in fact, you know what you could do.
You, if you haven't already done this, Kevin,
have you downloaded the Civic Media app to your smartphone yet?
I have a lot, but thanks for calling me out.
There you go, because when Dr. Kumashiro downloads
that Civic Media app, you know why, Kevin,
because no matter where you are,
whether you're doing an interim dean's stint
or you're back in Hawaii, wherever,
you can listen to Busted Pencils anywhere you go
with that Civic Media app, Kevin.
So, you know, put it out there.
Civic Media app, go out, you know, Google Play.
The Apple Store, get it.
It's free.
Doesn't cost you a thing.
And we always like to point this out to Johnny's
got some colleagues in Finland, Kevin.
They even listen in Finland, which is great, you know.
Worldwide, and Worldwide, let's get it that way.
But Kevin, we, you know, love having you here.
You know, we've had you on different times, but.
So, Wisconsin, which is where the show, you know,
is based, heard all over now, Civic Media,
all over the entire state of Wisconsin.
Last week, Wisconsin, now, you know, unanimously,
legislated that Asian American
and among American history now is mandated
in the curriculum, grades K five or grades five through 12.
And the work you've done, diversity, equity,
inclusion in Asian American,
I was like, we gotta have Kevin on the show
to kind of help us break it down.
But Kevin, is, how significant is this legislation?
And Wisconsin, to pass from, from your point of view?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, Tim, thanks so much for bringing this up.
It's, it's such an interesting time
because in the last, just the last few years,
we've seen a whole bunch of movement
to try to make curriculum far more inclusive,
far more accurate of who we are in the United States
as well as around the world.
So Wisconsin's move follows a trend of, you know,
at this point, I think it's around 10 states
that have legislation that basically says,
hey, Asian Americans need to be included
in the K 12 curriculum in, you know,
in various subject matters, even.
And I think what I would say is makes this significant
is several things.
One, you know, the majority of states,
actually the vast majority of states right now
actually do include Asian Americans in curriculum standards.
But to be able to go farther and say
that a significant amount of Asian American studies,
particularly Asian American history,
has to be included across the grade levels
and perhaps even across the content,
I think takes it one step further, right?
It's not just like, you know,
a little inclusion here and there,
but it's like a substantive study.
I think that's really important.
And I think the other thing I would say,
why is this so important right now?
You know, there's so much going on
both in terms of anti-Asian racism
that has escalated over the last few years,
as well as censorship around race in the curriculum.
And I think these are two forces
against which this kind of legislation is trying to push.
You think about that.
And the first thing I was thinking about is,
isn't it also interesting to see legislation
like this pass at the same time
in the state of Wisconsin, the state of Florida,
the state of Ohio legislation in other states
is passing to ban also diversity,
equity and inclusion types of things
that might make people uncomfortable.
And how do we make sense of the both kind of,
we're going to mandate diversity,
equity and inclusion studies like Asian American history,
Native American history, African American Hispanic.
And at the same time,
these states are also then passing legislation,
calling out very specifically
that any push towards diversity,
equity and inclusion needs to be somehow curtailed.
I don't know how we make sense of this, Kevin.
Yeah.
I mean, one amazing contradiction.
And I think Wisconsin is significant
and perhaps the most attention got paid
when Florida did the same thing,
but it was right in the midst
of a lot of anti-black legislation like black studies
and so on that it's going to pass at the same time.
Hey, but let's require Asian American studies.
So I think there's a couple of things going on
that's really helpful.
It's been helpful for me to kind of think through
and hear others talk about.
And one is that a lot of the censorship legislation
don't say gay, don't talk about critical race theory,
don't talk about racism for that matter at all,
really is in so many ways less about the curriculum
itself and more this kind of politicized
organizing initiative, right?
I mean, many people have said,
like does this legislation actually speak
against state standards, but no, it doesn't.
So what does it actually do?
Well, it actually rallies people to turn against public schools,
turn against their teachers,
and vote in particular ways, right?
Getting on this kind of fear-mongering bandwagon kind of thing.
So all of the DEI CRT transinclusive policies,
they serve much more as kind of a bogeyman
to make us afraid and a straw man,
like this caricature of what is actually happening in schools
that I think turns people against schools.
And then I would say one other thing
that this makes me think about is the timing,
I don't think is coincidental
that you would see movements around Asian-Americans
at a time when so much pushback
on racial justice initiatives is happening.
Because I think Asian-Americans have long been positioned
as wedges to prevent solidarity work
and coalition building across racial groups
towards racial justice.
I mean, think about for the last, what is now, 60ish years
that we've had the model minority stereotype
of Asian-Americans come along
that really emerged big time in the civil rights movement era
when people are claiming and pushing against systemic
and structural racism,
well, what better way to deny that there's structural racism
than to say, well, there can't be structural racism.
Because look, there's one group that's making it
and maybe if all of you others would try as hard,
you two could make it.
So this kind of elevating of Asian-Americans
as the poster child of kind of meritocracy,
I think is very often strategically planned and timed.
It's not surprising that you have inflamed rhetoric
about race when you're struggling
against affirmative action,
when you're struggling against kind of foreign policy
and countries in Asia, right?
All kinds of things, I think coincide
to help us understand why Asian-Americans in particular
would be elevated in this moment.
Boy, it's so much there.
The number is 855-7524842.
If you want to jump in, our guest is Dr. Kevin Kumashero.
He is the interim dean of the School of Education
at Hofstra University,
one of the amazing original founders
of education deans for justice and equity.
Just make sure we put that out there.
Johnny, Ben, I see you.
It's so much, I agree.
Yeah, I mean, this is great.
And it's especially timely on the show
and for all of our listeners,
not only because of the bill on the governor's desk
in Wisconsin, but also just because the conversations
we've been having around that,
like you just said, that organizing rhetoric, raising fear
and sending like a chilling effect
through discussions that everyday people
ought to be having about schools.
And it's so polarized
because there is all this myth out there.
Like, well, did you know teachers are, you know,
pushing or indoctrinating our youth to be Marxist
or, you know, or to, you know, to change their genders
as though, you know, that teachers have some sort of say
or influence in that process, you know.
And so it's so great that time and time for our listeners
out there, we have these guests on
who are on the front lines of not only these policies,
but these experiences as school leaders,
as teachers, as teacher educators, as deans,
you know, as superintendents that keep coming on
and saying the same kinds of things.
Hey, what's really happening in schools
are highly qualified folks are coming together
to help make sure education is best for all children.
And so it's a real gift to have you here, Kevin,
sort of speaking not only to the, you know,
to the elevating of our Asian American students,
but to really all students when we think about this, right?
This is the more we learn about how children
best learn and develop, right?
The more we can better serve our communities,
and ultimately we keep saying, you know,
that's the better off of a strong democracy.
Yeah, especially that, Kevin, go ahead, jump in there.
No, I'm just, I'm nodding, you know,
I'm resonating vigorously.
Yeah, you know, just in a conversation earlier today
about how the, you know, I wish every day
I wish every day in schools and colleges
across the country that we were asking ourselves,
why are we here?
Like why education?
And what is the purpose?
And, you know, we might say it's to prepare us for a job
or we might say it's to level the playing field.
But I think our job is to recognize
that schools have always been quite contradictory,
that it can have multiple purposes
and it can function quite the opposite, right?
It can function to stabilize the status quo
and inequities, just as it can function to liberate
and revolutionize and transform.
And I think we, including our young people,
including our students, we need to be diving into that debate
and figuring out how we dive into the contradiction
and how we steer our education in the direction
that we most want it to go.
Well, there it is, he's our guest, he's Dr. Kevin Kumashiro.
He is the interim dean of the School of Education
at Hofstra University, talking about, you know,
Wisconsin two days ago, right now,
sitting on the governor's desk, legislation mandating,
mandating the inclusion of Asian American
and among American history in the curriculum,
K-12 curriculum.
Kevin, I want to come back to on the point where you said,
what makes this different is to say,
it's not that Asian Americans weren't included
in the standards, particularly in social studies, right?
But how this maybe goes a little bit further to say,
no, no, no, no, it's more than just in the standards.
It's now here, and I've done this in Wisconsin
with a lot of the native and original Aboriginal people
in the Wisconsin area, talking about.
The shot, W-A-U-K, walk a shot is home for night biking.
Oh, yeah, we love it.
Spusted pencils, it's fully letted education talk.
Educated educators, talking education, 8557524842 is the number.
If you want to join us, our guest, Dr. Kevin Kumashiro,
interim dean, the School of Education at Hofstra University,
founder of Education Deans for Justice and Equity,
Diversity, Equity and Inclusion, international experts on that.
But we're here really talking about Wisconsin two days ago,
now is about to become law, if the governor will sign it.
The mandate that the curriculum, this is Act 31,
which is, again, it will become a constitutional mandate
that the inclusion of Asian American,
among American studies history be included.
And, Kevin, you made a comment when you first came on,
and said, there is, you know, in a sense,
and I would say this from the realm of my original background
as a social studies teacher, and Johnny's too,
is saying, you know, multicultural education, the realm,
you know, we've been hearing about including others
in the curriculum for 30 some years.
This is different, though.
And I'm just wondering if you could kind of help people
understand why this is different.
Yeah, I mean, I think one of the big differences for me
is, I was looking at this wonderful project,
research project done by the scholars,
so you know, who kind of looks at state standards,
particularly in social studies in every state across the country,
and kind of points to how, you know, vast majority of states
do have like topics here and there in the curriculum
that have to do with Asian Americans.
And sometimes it's a particular ethnic group,
like Japanese American incarceration during World War II.
And sometimes it's more broadly about Asian Americans.
And I think all of that is great, of course, we should do that.
When we mandate, however, the study of a particular group
in a more substantive way, like this kind of legislation
is calling for, I think it means hopefully more in-depth coverage.
But I think there's also this wonderful, very positive
side or additional outcome.
Because what is demanded of us when we teach more in-depth
on, say, Asian American studies is more preparation of educators,
more development of curriculum, more community partnerships for schools,
more involvement of other people in education.
I mean, there's a lot more that then happens
that is all about building the capacity of schools
to teach about different groups and to support different groups.
And I think that's really quite exciting.
So like, take Illinois is a great example.
When Illinois said all right, we need Asian American studies
and K-12 schools.
What was some of the most exciting organizing
that I was seeing both within the education world
and in the community-based organization world
was thinking about curriculum development and teacher
preparation and community partnerships
in four schools across the country.
Knowing that whether or not you have a large
Asian or any Asian American students in your schools,
we all need to beef up our capacity to be far more competent
at addressing curriculum,
but also addressing the questions that might come up.
I mean, another exciting thing to me
about deepening our grasp of Asian American studies
is that we can then address the questions
that students are probably bringing to school
about things like hate crimes, stereotyping,
representation, or lack of representation in the media
portrayals of sort of foreign actors and treason
and enemies and spies.
I mean, the rhetoric is amazing right now.
And sometimes Asian Americans get even lost
and we might ask why aren't they in conversations
about things like immigration policy
or things like medical health care policy,
globalization, global health policy, and so on.
So it allows us to study the content.
It also allows us to go more deeply in making connections
to what's happening around the world in the here and now
when we have these other things that accompany
legislation like this, like curriculum development,
professional development partnerships, and so on.
So that's one of the things that I think is an exciting outcome
and I think there's lots of folks in Wisconsin
throughout the state, right, given the populations
that are kind of circled around the state.
I think there's a lot of enthusiasm to kind of dive
into precisely that kind of work when this legislation
gives it that oomph, that kind of catalyst to move forward.
Excellent. John Lupinacci.
Yeah, I love this Kevin and my gears are turning
because you're connecting so many dots about what it does
when we acknowledge the importance of any diverse cultural
groups, not only existence, but their history, right?
And the richness that comes with schools doing more than
just continuing the status quo.
So really saying there are diverse communities here
that not only are present, but have a history that isn't always so
so so shiny, so whitewashed, we'll just say it as often here.
So I'm going to put you on a spot, but Kevin,
and maybe you could share a little bit before the break.
And if you, if it spills over, we could go into that.
But for our listeners that are teachers out there,
you know, or educators or educational leaders,
where can they, what are, what resources do you suggest for them
thinking about, hey, I want to learn some of this history so that I can,
you know, better teach it or better, you know, be prepared for that curriculum,
do in the due diligence, right?
Saying, I don't really know that history because one,
it wasn't taught when I was in school or two.
And I only got a little paragraph of it in, you know,
in a college textbook or in a social studies news, news handout, right?
Do you have any, do you have any suggestions for our educators out there who are like,
this is great, especially with constant listeners.
This bill is on the governor's desk.
So like we've talked about indigenous knowledge is in our schools and,
you know, in the history of the importance of teaching historical truths.
This is part of that.
And it's a diverse invitation to be a learner and a co-learner with students.
So Kevin, do you have any recommendations?
Well, yeah, thank you for the question.
I know that there's, I mean, there's been so many amazing curriculums that have been developed.
I know that there's a huge Asian American studies curriculum being put together by a huge
coalition of scholars right now because of all this movement around curriculum.
And, you know, there's a mix of like books and organizations as well as kind of public entities.
And I'm kind of being vague because I'm not naming anyone because what I would say
is to me the most exciting next step at this point is not to look for only one or two great
curriculums even though there are such things out there.
What does it mean for us to come together and build our own repository and build a website
of that is serves as a clearinghouse to everything that's out there.
What does it mean for us to partner with the universities, to partner with organizations,
to screen the different kinds of curriculums that are out there and the resources that are
available to us and the workshops that are available to us.
Like, that's what I would think is the most exciting and most important next step.
We can all point to one great textbook.
I would say, oh, but if that's all we do, I would be, I would feel remiss.
Like, I would feel like we're missing something really big.
Our job is to build our capacity to work collectively, to screen what's out there,
to collect what's out there, to challenge each other and push each other to explore how we
use what's out there.
The collective work of building curriculum, that I think is what we want to do.
I love that.
Yeah, just thinking about that because Kevin, I was thinking, you know, it is now the invitation
is out there for all of these partnerships, collaborations to say, okay, how do we make?
Well, I mean, think about this, right?
And this is the professionalism of being an educator is engaging in building curriculum,
finding our best sources locally that are there, reaching out nationally,
creating those connections and being a real professional and developing curriculum.
Because, yeah, like you said, the last thing I would want to see is because I see this
largely with the quote, science of reading type of stuff out there is, is that here is the
curriculum, here is the mandate and you will do this.
Man, we're going to ask some more of these questions of Busted Pencils,
fully-led education talk.
Our guest, Dr. Kevin Kumashiro, when we get back, we'd also want to do a little bit more
into diversity, equity and inclusion, Busted Pencils, back after the break.
You said just go as you want to, but sanctuce your right mind, please don't die on me.
We would never want that to happen, don't die on us, it's Busted Pencils, it's fully-led
education talk. My goodness, we want you to get through the show.
Well, actually, we want you to come back tomorrow and the next day and the next day and the next
day, just keep coming back 855-752-4842. It's educated. Educators talking education. Our guest
is Dr. Kevin Kumashiro. He is the interim dean of the School of Education at Hoster University
founder, deans for equity and justice. That's edge, education deans for justice and equity.
I got to say, I was back in that moment too, Kevin, I remember doing that, sitting around an
AERA table and DC going, what would it look like if deans of education got together around
something significant such as diversity, equity and inclusion. And think about that,
Kevin, leading coming into this, and you started this off, the world that a teacher occupies right
now unless a current teacher and anybody imagining that, to becoming a teacher, they are truly
faced with, so you're now saying in the state of Wisconsin, it's illegal to teach inclusion
and it's now mandated to include people or it's mandated for me to exclude people. I don't know
how to make sense of this, Kevin. What a teacher to do.
I'm not invigorously listening, I'm not invigorously because what an interesting, complicated,
like, you know, perverse moment that we're in. And, you know, I also, you're making me think of
several things. One is, you know, the danger of a lot of these kinds of inclusion policies and
legislation. There are many dangers, right? And one of them is that it could lead to simplistic,
stereotypical lessons that are simplistic and stereotypical about any group, right? It's sort
of why a lot of us, like I'm from the field of Asian American studies and a lot of us, when we hear
about mandated ethnic studies courses, our first question is, well, who's going to teach that?
Because you could do a really, really bad job that simply reinforces problematic narratives about
different groups, including Asian Americans and among Americans. So I think that's one of my
concerns is that, you know, just having the inclusion isn't always a great thing if it's not
accompanied by other kinds of education for educators. I think another thing that this makes me think
of is, well, first quick side note listeners that Tim Sleckard was at the ground floor of building
education deans with justice and equity. And he may not take the credit, but years before I started
to form education deans for justice and equity, Tim was bringing together deans to talk about the power
or the potential we might have for change if we were to act collectively. And I bring that up
because I think that that's the second thing that we need to be thinking about, like, you know,
I remember when I was learning to be a teacher, I mean, we would all talk about how, oh, we can't
wait till we have job protection because then we can just close the door and no one's paying
attention to us and we can do our real teaching and be super creative and, you know, not feel like
we're under pressure by by sensors and monitors and all of that. But I think the reality is that
our teaching is greatly impoverished when it's not approached as a collective endeavor, when we're
not constantly working with each other to imagine the vision and the goals and to assess ourselves
together and all of that. So, and then I think that that leads into my third point, which is,
you know, in this moment, I do think we need to think a lot more about what it means to prepare
teachers to thrive in repressive and censored contexts. And I remember going again back to some
stories from when I was teaching. I remember a lot of us would talk about how, oh, when I get a job,
I want to be in a place where I can really do my social justice, multicultural kind of teaching,
really ask difficult questions. I want to be in a place where the principal supports and the
parents will protest. And, you know, where do you find a place like that? That's not exactly very
common. It's like every place is contested, every place will have its opponents, every place will
be limited and limiting in some ways. And I think we do the teaching, we schools of education do a
major disservice to the teaching profession when we don't build up everyone's capacity to tailor
your teaching to whatever context. You find yourselves it. Our job isn't to find the
anti-oppressive space where I can do fully social justice teaching. Our job is to figure out how we
tailor our teaching in collective ways in whatever context we find ourselves in, right? It will
always be contradictory in that sense. And that's what I think we want to really, really explore
way more with new teachers and with our colleagues who are currently teaching.
Johnny. I love hearing that Kevin, it's inspiring, but also it resonates so true to so many
teachers. So teacher candidates, pre-service teachers, all three of us work closely with
educating educators, right? And we hear teachers and we talk about, you know, what are there?
What are their concerns? So we work with communities and we're in schools and we hear from teachers
all the time, right? I'm not sure I can teach the way I want to teach here, right? And Kevin,
you remind us that's part of our job. It's not to find this perfect setting. I mean, let's dream
that that's the world we'll have for our future generations, but that's not the world we're in
right now. So we're always preparing people to work in what is towards what ought to be.
And that's really exciting because that's such a concern so many young people have,
or even a myth that they're preparing to be in that perfect classroom or that school where they
can do the great sort of anti-racist abolitionist teaching that they're eager to do. I will fully say
that so many young teachers out there are very eager for that. This generation coming in
are capable and they're very excited about doing not kind of teaching, but we also have to
prepare them to be in a world that will fight against that. And that's really, that's really
important to bring back into focus, Kevin. I really appreciate you bringing that up.
No, and you also make me think, Johnny, about how it's not just our communities and supervisors and
peers. Like sometimes we think, oh, I most want to teach with people who will just jump up with joy
every time I speak, rather than recognizing what's not. Teaching isn't sort of confirming what
students already know. Teaching is actually exposing to ideas that they don't just think through.
And that means that it often, that learning that as a student involves unlearning what they already
think. And that can be very uncomfortable and even promoting resistance among our students
if they're very invested in how they already believe. So, you know, teaching towards justice,
there's resistance from the outside, but there's also resistance that we should expect with
our students. And again, how do we, how do we prepare teachers for that? I think so often
we, we imagine teaching as something that is about students receiving something that they didn't
already have. And I think our job is to say, actually, teaching often involves students grappling
with something that they already do have. And that resistance is such a central part of teaching and
learning that I don't think we grapple with. And I'll just say one last thing, which is I say the
same thing with leaders, right, which is, you know, we often talk about like the transformative
leader who will come in and like change things. And I think that that sets up leaders for failure.
I think the model we need to be thinking about is how leading is very much a collective endeavor
and it's not that different than grassroots organizing. Like it is going to be, it is about
kind of getting people to see that things could be different. And that is going to push us up
against resistance. And so how do we, it's like I often will say in some of my leadership work,
you can plan the best, you know, you can have the best plan for transforming an institution.
But if embedded in that plan or woven throughout that plan, if you don't have how you're going to
address discomfort and resistance, then that plan kind of yes is setting yourself up for failure.
And so working with an institution as a leader, working with young people as a teacher,
working with a community as a teacher. I mean, in all of these instances, I think grappling with
discomfort and resistance must be a much bigger part of the conversation. I think them
to typically happens. It makes me think too though. Like that's inspiring work too to remember that
when I hear about this is realizing, you know, I'm sitting, you know, I'm in front of my social
studies methods class. I've got 21, you know, 20-year-old people that are imagining that they're
going to be out there teaching, you know, social studies. Well, I'm also diluting myself believing
that they're, that they want to be in my class instead of being mandated to be there. But they're
there. And Kevin, as you said, you know, I could either present and say, here is the multicultural
curriculum that I want you to teach. And I'm in rural Pennsylvania. And most of my students
imagine themselves going back to teach in rural Pennsylvania. And they could be looking at me going
this guy. He just doesn't get it. This, and maybe even Dr. Sucker, this might be interesting,
however, in my town. The invitation though, as you're saying, Kevin, I think about that how we
have to in ask the students, and in fact, even invite them into and say, this is going to be
challenging to teach, and John, you said this, as we think schools ought to be, we know how schools
are. We know what the status quo is. And we've got a vision of what ought to be. And what I hear you
saying, Kevin, and if we want to inspire towards the what ought to be, we have to realize what it
takes to get people to even be accepting of imagining a possibility of what ought to be.
Did that make sense? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Again, I'm nodding, nodding vigorously. Yes,
you know, some of what you're making me think of is just like, I think so often we think that
education is about preparing people to succeed. And I like to remind myself of, again, going
to some of the contradictions that just permeate schools. Like, if we recognize that schools were set
up to at first just to teach the most elite in society. And then we think about how schools were
set up and still are to kind of sort and socialize. Then is success in school really a sign of
like smartness and effort? Or is it also a sign of that you've learned how to play the game and
you can demonstrate it the way others want you to want you to? Like in so many ways success in
school is a sign of conformity, more so than smartness and individuality and effort.
And so this is just a reminder for me that, you know, education isn't and shouldn't be merely
about preparing us to succeed in the world as it is. I think education should be about building
our capacity to imagine the world as it is not yet. The world as it could be and to build our
capacity to like build towards and move towards that world if we're so moved to do so. And I think
that's why education is so scary. That's why education is so often like the site of the central
site of ideological and political struggle in any society. Why? Because it has the potential
to disrupt the status quo to intervene against the very thing that it was built to do with this,
which is to socialize, which is to stabilize. It's why we go after educators, right? It's why
we go after artists and journalists and scientists and judges and why? Because these are the groups
that often are the ones saying whose social role it is to say we don't always need to follow and
we shouldn't always be following the dominant script. There are other ways to imagine. There are
other ways to be and our job is to build towards that. So yeah, I think that's what makes,
I think this moment an incredibly important and exciting one and why education is so front and
center in these struggles. He's Dr. Kevin. John, I mean, great. Yeah, great. And yeah,
in Kevin, so we're about to say thank you and thank you. We'll give you the typical send-off
and I'm not going to say it now, but Kevin, you know, just wrapping around. So Wisconsin,
the governor hopefully is going to sign the legislation, which will include, will mandate the
inclusion of teaching Asian American, among American history. This is, you know, let's call it. It's
a victory for diversity, equity and inclusion. Kevin, you know, so you're at Hofstra, we don't know
how long. Anybody, you know, books, this is your time. Where can people find Kevin Kumashiro?
Well, everyone should be looking for Kevin Kumashiro because I love meeting new people. Yes, I do
have a website KevinKumashiro.com and it has a lot of links not just by me, but other people doing
really interesting, important work, including on Asian Americans in education, as well as the
attacks on, like, teaching about truths in schools. And I, yeah, I so appreciate it being on
busted pencils again. Thanks so much to Tim and Johnny for inviting me and keep up the amazing
work that you do. Kevin, thank you for busting pencils. And Johnny Tim, get back, we'll break it down.
Yeah, thank you, Kevin.
Hey, here we go.
Awesome. We're back here. We had just an amazing guest here with us tonight, Dr. Kevin Kumashiro,
interim dean at Hofstra and doing just amazing work around leadership in colleges of education
around the country and really influencing, you know, how we prepare educators around the world
was great to have him here. I lost Tim at the break, so it's just on you and I, but, you know,
we've been rejoining. I'm waiting for his camera to be on his face and then I'm going to let him
he can come into the classroom then. Yeah, awesome. Well, if you have, if you have something to say or
ask, you know, call us at 857524842. The phone lines are open and, you know, we're recapping Dr.
Kevin Kumashiro here with us tonight, special guest on a Monday, busted pencils, you know,
bringing up the importance of the bill on the governor's desk to mandate Asian and among American
studies into our K-12 curriculum. Another amazing move connected to so many things. Tim, you're back
with us. I'm here. I'm here. I don't know. Are you as excited as I am? That's what I am. You know,
I said, Kevin, and you said, I, I met Kevin in 2010. I think he was at the University of Illinois
in Chicago at that point. You know, research, you're doing incredible work, you know, working collaboratively
with the Chicago's teachers union, you know, providing that real on the ground research for the
organizing work Chicago teachers union was doing around social justice issues. And, you know,
my connection then to I just stayed with Kevin. And I remember when I got my first dean's position
in 2013. And then I saw Kevin became the dean at the University of San Francisco at that time.
And I was like, Kevin, at this point, I said, man, wouldn't it be cool? And I appreciate that he
gave me some of the props there that, you know, if we brought deans together around diversity,
equity and inclusion and justice issues and bringing that and his ability to inspire, to break
things down to digestible knowledge, you know, so my neighbor understands it, right, can get it.
It's just that's where you take a guest like Dr. Kevin Kumashero and what they can bring to this,
you know, and still realizing that this is a huge thing to celebrate in Wisconsin. The,
truly, the inclusion, the mandated inclusion of Asian American among history, but then still
recognizing the potential problems that are there and how even those problems aren't invitation
to something, especially I love this whole idea. And I think I want to play on this more and more
with the show, the imagining of what could be what ought to be, what should be, and how important
that is as an inspiration and a very organizing theme of going, and if it ought to be, how much do I
not know yet? Well, Tim, dare we say emancipating education from schooling. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Right. There it is. That courage to dream big, but to have, you know, our heads and
hands in the clouds, but our feet on the ground. Right. And Kevin reminded us today of that idea of
transformative, transformative leadership. You know, it's one thing to have a great plan,
but it's another thing to have grassroots collaboration and organizing. And that means building
relationships. And that means exercising our civic duty. You know, LA Tom always calls in and
reminds us it's we are government, we the people, right? And so a little bit of that civic 101
coming in here, right? It's our responsibility. It's not only as educators, but as informed
citizens in this current moment where things are, as Kevin said, really perverse, really juxtaposed.
We have these amazing bills to include, you know, to mandate diverse studies, right? To bring
more equitable about public education at the same very time as we have massive attacks launched
against difference against what we know to be healthy development and diversity. And so, so this
is an incredibly, you know, difficult moment for educators, but an inspiring time. I often tell
the students I have who are just about to become elementary teachers right now, right? And I say
to them, this is one of the most exciting times to be a teacher. It couldn't be any harder,
but it could also, it's also this precipice moment where they're becoming teachers. They're,
they're, you know, their teacher identities are being forged in the crucible of this,
like Kevin reminds us, this perverse moment, this really tense moment where we have to consider
multiple perspectives. And I love that Kevin left us with that sentiment. He shared a lot of wisdom
with us tonight, but he left us with that sentiment that good leadership around this. And teachers,
educators, democratic citizens out there, your leaders, right? You are the leaders. That is sort of
the, the, the important fabric of democracy is that we are all leaders in that grassroots strengthening
of our democracies. Tim, what do you got to close us out tonight, man?
Well, I, there's so, I mean, you said there's so much there, Johnny. You said the moment of,
again, being stuck in this and the, you know, the inclusion, the inclusion of it made me think
though, too, when I, when I read, you know, some of the headlines on this in, in Wisconsin, the,
they say it's a unanimous approval that this was, this law, you know, to include Asian American,
among American within the act 31 mandate in the state of Wisconsin. And you sit there and go,
and how is it? I'm just wondering is it, I'm not sure this is as much of a show close,
is this is an open to another discussion. And I'm thinking about this, Johnny.
How can a state or any state, but not, but how can Wisconsin, then I would love to talk to people
who have legislators, particularly. So if you're a legislator out there, this is an invitation for
you on to come on this show to talk about this. Because if you signed on and supported the
mandating of killing diversity, equity and inclusion, and you also then voted in support of the
inclusion of Asian American and among American, I gotta understand your thinking there because
think about like how do you support both of those? And then imagine the kind of pain that you
are saying going back to teachers and realizing that you are now, you have mandated to a teacher
of potential impossibility, which is I'm not allowed, and yet I'm mandated to do something.
I'm not allowed to do this, but now the law says I have to do this. I gotta have some explanation
from some policy makers here to go, how are we making sense of this? You know, that's not as much
as a summary, Johnny, is it's making me say, we've got an invitation here to try to understand
this moment, you know, and that's that's what we do every every night on busted pencils. Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, we're opening the door to more discussions. And I would put
this out there in the, you know, spirit of Kevin Kumishiro recognizing the moment isn't solved.
We have an opportunity to have more discussions. And man, Johnny tomorrow, civics 101 tomorrow, man,
we'll check it out. Bons of pencils. See y'all tomorrow night. Yeah.