This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci,
educated educators talking education.
Ah, welcome, Busted Pencils Thursday,
fully-ledded education talk, educated educators.
Tucking education, Dr. Tim Slecker, Dr. Johnny Lupinacci,
a little bit of a thing going on right now,
but he will be back.
We promise, we promise,
Anya's here, though, producer, Anya.
We always love when you're in the studio rocking the mic
when you can throw it in there.
So Anya, check it out.
I've got a question for you.
OK.
Like at 1am, can you be found with like that blue kind
of glowing light in your face,
kind of making sure, checking your Twitter feed,
doing the, you know, yeah, usually around that time,
I'm getting a text from some crazy guy named Tim
about some audio they need tomorrow.
So I've got the, I've got not just the little blue light,
but my two big blue lights of my editing PC at home.
Yeah.
Oh, nice.
Why?
You know, I'm just, you know, thinking about this,
well, you know, how many now?
I know we've heard this.
Actually, and I know there's been a big push in European,
some European countries, Finland in particular.
The idea of the dreaded cell phone being in schools,
kids totally wrapped up spending their time addicted.
Yeah, 2am, kids are under their sheets.
You know, they used to hang out with flashlights
under their sheets and read comic books.
Now they're, you know, I'm on.
And now though they're under their sheets
with their cell phones, who knows what they're doing?
Well, we might have somebody here who knows
what they might be doing.
Our guest is a full professor at the University
of Wisconsin at Whitewater.
She's also affiliated with the Holt Center
for Science and Technology Studies
at the UW-Madison, that's University of Wisconsin-Madison.
She has written several books over 80 peer-reviewed articles
on computing management ethics, public policy,
disabilities, studies, and related topics.
And if you've listened to busted pencils over the years,
you'd know her as Collar Jo Ann from Madison.
Welcome to Busted Pencils, Dr. Jo Ann Oravek.
Hi, Jo Ann, how are you?
This is a complete delight for me.
I'm the biggest fan of the show.
And I'm hoping to give the students, your students,
your colleagues, some glimpses of what the technology angles
of all of this are, as well as some of the educational angles,
although some of that's going to have to wait till the very end.
We have some secrets to share about what
to do practically about some of these issues.
OK, now I've heard this, though.
I'm playing around with you talking about this,
but I've heard this, and I wonder how you can help us
address this.
You know, people say, oh, man, I'm addicted to that.
I'm addicted to this.
And then we hear kids are addicted to cell phones.
Is it really an addiction?
Or is it just something that we older people are annoyed by?
Yeah, it's an addiction.
It's an addiction.
I get paid by a company in spirit corporation.
It's an AI startup to help them make their products more addictive,
to make them products that people would like to use longer,
not put down, and all of that.
And that's the big secret of almost all social media products.
As you might have heard, we had a whistleblower from Facebook,
Francis Hogan, who had documentation along these lines
about how meetings at Facebook were
about these addiction level issues, how
to make the product more addictive, make a state longer.
We get evaluated as technologists as to how long people use our items.
And don't drift away to do other things
like eat or sleep or maybe talk to other people face to face.
So I'm meeting right now, then, in this show tonight,
with a dealer is what you're telling me.
That's exactly right.
And that's why I'm going to be telling you
some of the secrets of all of this,
of the behavioral modification that goes on.
And I'm hoping to give you some strategies
if you're really hooked.
I will.
I will.
No, I love.
Hey, the number is 844-967-2789, 844-967-2789.
Our guest, Dr. Joanne Oravek, looking at, first of all,
a lot of stuff we're going to cover here.
All the way to the Super Bowl, even believe it or not,
we're going to put the Super Bowl into this.
But Joanne, technology, mostly cell phones, addictions.
You said, yes, it's a real thing.
The blue lights.
And we know, particularly in schools,
I see teachers, principals, superintendents,
school board meetings, all over the country saying,
no more cell phones that kids aren't allowed to have them.
All kinds of attempts to regulate, squash out,
make them go away.
If there is an addiction, though, this
is just a question of interest to me.
If we take their phones away, won't the addicts
be even worse off if they don't have it?
Well, I'm hoping that we'll get collars along these lines.
I'm hoping we attract people who will
fess up to their addictions.
Now, I'm going to fess up to a secret
that I don't tell most people.
I was an addict of computing in the 1970s
when I was doing computing.
I was one of those people in the white coats
and behind the glass and all of that.
I was working up to 100 hours a week
and completely loving it, the power of computing and all that.
So it may take some fancy screens and all of that
to hook people today, but I'll tell you something.
There's something in computing that we can talk about
that is addictive, whether or not it's
a big mainframe behind some glass in 1970s
or it's that little casino in your hand
that tells you to bet more and more and giving you
side bets and prop bets and all of that.
We can talk a little bit about the mechanics of betting,
which is going to be fun as well.
Well, I think people look at this too.
When you say the technology, the blue lights,
but to understand the addiction part of it,
try, let's explain that a little bit in that.
I mean, because obviously I was playing around with this
and I've looked at the studies,
but I mean, the reality is is that I mean,
it's not the blue lights and the flashing things
that are it is the whole idea and at least you help me
understand is that so if you're a Facebook person
and you're out there and all of a sudden you get a like
and you like that like and then you like back that like
that actually that exchange of just using your thumb
and clicking like and reading like and then waiting
for your pocket to ding off so that you can know
that you got to like that that's actually creating
a chemical reaction in your brain that is creating
truly an addiction.
Is that real or am I just reading the bad literature?
That's exactly right.
We are entities that crave self-efficacy,
that crave agency and these devices give us that.
And just to give us the to loop in that example
so people won't think we're going to drop that gaming
and gambling topic.
Oh, we're not.
When you get when you when the young person who maybe
is failing in a lot of aspects in life and doesn't feel
very good about him or herself earns $100 through some
gambling that he or she does or fantasy daily fantasy sports
as they say DFS they try to reframe it so it's not
really gambling as we'll discuss.
That's going to give that person some self-efficacy,
some sense of agency and which is extremely addictive.
What we're trying to do in the organization that I'm working
in is build good habits but through those very same
mechanisms and we shouldn't put down the lights and the colors
and the the base, the sounds and the whole structure
of what's going on, even fonts can be addictive in many ways.
So again, the whole package that Facebook was so just
empowered to put together, they got some great scientists
to work on making Facebook addictive.
All of that is bundled into what's addictive by itself.
We like to gamble, people gamble on a lot of things
in their lives where risk takers and all of that.
And you bundle all this together in a little package
that's a casino in your pocket.
That's very scary for young people to dismiss as an option.
How young people, I'm just thinking now, if my mom's listening,
I'm sorry mom, but Joanne, I want to, my mom on her iPad,
she, you know, Facebook, she's like, no,
she plays those casino games on her iPad.
They're not connected, though, as far as I know,
because I haven't gotten a huge inheritance from her actually,
you know, but she likes the game aspect.
Tell us something about that whole idea of like the gaming,
because you know, some of the notes you gave me here,
there's something in that.
I mean, is, okay, mom, if you're out there,
is my mom addicted to gambling on the iPad?
Right, to get the addiction part of it
has a number of different aspects.
We can go through one by one proximity.
How easy is it to get to that venue
where you'll be able to work your magic
and be, have some agency, be, have that self effectiveness?
That cookie jar that's far away is not going to be as tempting
as the cookies that are right on the shelf next to you.
And so that proximity is a big aspect.
But also, let's, let's,
well, we're, work a few other dimensions.
The leaderboard aspect or the competition with others,
a huge aspect that a lot of these daily fantasy sports,
which are the draft kings and the fan duels,
we'll get into those sports bet and all of that.
All of that is very, very addictive
that you are climbing up the leaderboard.
And that's when we're using even an advanced AI products
that are going to be used in office settings and all of that,
that you, you are getting a little bit better
than the person down the hallway
or next to you and all of that
in various aspects of your work.
So again, you have to look at the entire package
that makes something addictive.
The gambling is addictive in itself.
And we don't want to, you know,
negate the fact that, yeah, we all love to gamble
to assert the extent.
But when you couple it with devices
that are in themselves, very, very addictive,
you add social media to it
and some of these devices are doing with gambling.
And you also, you can make it seem fun
in so many different ways by being reminiscent.
You know, even some of the themes,
the gambling themes are reflected
in these programs.
I had some of my students analyze a set of sports programs.
And, you know, the gambling themes that are, you know,
reminiscent of movies like Casino and all of that,
you really feel you're there even though you're home.
Oh, man, our guest, Dr. Joanne Oravek,
gambling, social media, gamification, kids are addicted.
My mom at home is addicted to her iPad.
Busted pencils.
More after the break.
For more.
Yeah, we always break through
the under-toe busted pencils, fully-ledged education talk,
educated educators, talking education,
social media apps, addiction, sports betting,
the Super Bowl, we're covering it all here.
Our guest, Dr. Joanne Oravek, University of Wisconsin,
Whitewater and affiliated with University of Wisconsin,
Madison, all kinds of credentials behind her name,
all kinds of books and articles to her credit.
However, though, producer Anya,
do you have a social media addiction?
Are you free of that stuff?
Oh, do I have just one?
I definitely, I've been sitting here this whole time going,
yes, I definitely have some level of a social media addiction.
It's not slots games or gambling games, thankfully.
And I don't really do fantasy sports.
But I will find myself for hours on TikTok,
even though I'm kind of seeking,
I've been having problems with my algorithm
where it's like, why am I seeing all this stuff I don't like?
Get out of here, I keep scrolling,
trying to almost dig myself down to,
where is that good stuff I want?
The videos that make me laugh or give me an idea
are the things that I enjoy about TikTok.
Instead, if I'm not finding what I like,
I'm still there and I'm still,
every 10 videos or so going past an ad that sends,
however many pennies to TikTok
and I'm just contributing to my own downfall, I know,
but I can't help myself.
I, well, you said that, and so Joanne,
the social media, we forget TikTok.
There's an addictive aspect there,
like producer Anya was saying.
I like, what is, just give us a little bit more about,
how does on you get addicted to TikTok?
There are many ways in which the algorithms
to bring up that 50 cent word that everybody's sick of
are designed to catch you.
TikTok knows a lot about her and can,
and can guess, sometimes guess wrong
about what she likes and has to have all of that stacked up
ready to go when she seemingly tires with one theme
to move on to a different theme and all of that.
And of course, all of the other things
we were talking about, all the colors and the motion
and the excitement and all of that,
also a sense of community as well,
because we are a part when we use TikTok
of nation of TikTok users.
And so we get that sense of community.
Again, to say that all of this is bad
and we should turn off all of our devices and all of that,
as almost impossible.
But what we should do as educators
is start bringing some of the TikTok know-how
and the Facebook know-how and the fan-dual know-how
into our classes.
We could be doing a lot more with serious games,
even prediction concepts.
I have every, and every one of my classes,
a prediction contest of some sort.
For example, the stock price of Tesla,
the stock price of Google up or up or down.
I have an MBA as well, as well as a degree.
And that's the type of thing that will rope students in
and talking about the business angle.
I just brought out the MBA angle.
Just look at some of the ownership dimensions
of the companies that we're going to be talking about.
Fan-dual, for example, is owned in part by Fox Corporation.
Okay.
And some big, big money is behind Bet MGM,
which is at end sports points bet,
which are both blanketing any TV station
you're thinking of, as well as banner ads and all of that.
I had a banner ad just getting over here
with a solicitation.
So again, there's so much that we need to be thinking about.
It's a systems level problem, not an individual problem.
If we think that the way to solve all this
is just to tell people, be strong.
Don't succumb to the siren call of this stuff.
We'll lose out.
We need to be thinking about what we are offering students,
the excitement that we can offer as educators.
And what we should maybe not be offering.
And to that end, a lot of you probably saw
the 60 minutes program, not too long ago,
three days ago, four days ago,
in which they were talking about some of the sporting.
I was, yeah, I was going to say,
so give us a call, 844-967-278-9,
844-967-278-9.
If you're addicted to TikTok, like on here,
we want to hear from you.
But Joanne, let's make that pivot, though, too, to saying,
okay, so the gamification, the social media now,
the sports apps betting that is on our phones
where you can literally bet money, win money.
And the fact that we're worried about kids using phones,
so some schools are like, you know, put them away.
But the reality now is is that this betting,
the fact that it shows up on your phone like a video game.
This is a concern really, you know,
it might be a big thing if kids are on Facebook too long,
but the reality of a gamification betting sports app
that's on their phone while they're in school.
What could possibly go wrong there?
Many students are losing money.
A great deal of money, as well as time.
As you know, students' time,
even though they think they have a lot of time,
it's limited, and as they spend more and more time
in this fantasy sports world,
where they have to keep up with the teams
and the players and all of that.
That can limit what they can put into their education,
the time and effort.
Now, it's great when you're cheering on your own team
in a big stadium and you've got everybody around you,
but when you're isolated and you're in your room
and you're playing with factors that,
let's say, are designed to hook you in all of that,
it's not as healthy.
And that's what I'm talking about in terms of addiction.
Addiction is pushing things to the point at which
it's dysfunctional for the individual,
not just in taking money out of their pocket,
but also in diminishing their life chances.
There's so much that goes on there.
LA Tom is on the line.
LA Tom, are you out there using sports betting apps, Tom?
What's happening to Tom?
No, not at all.
I'm too ADHD to be doing any, a lot of that stuff.
I get bored by it.
I have been addicted to TikTok because honestly,
it's the one where I kind of go undercover
where no one knows what's even me
and I don't have to worry about feeling obligated
to like their stuff or anything.
I just watch it, I watch the videos
and I can go down that rabbit hole,
but also a lot of things that almost have good algorithms
because when I go on there,
I see a lot of really positive things.
I don't see a lot of negative.
I mean, probably more in the progressive side of things,
so I'm seeing more of those types of things
so it doesn't make me feel so bad,
whereas like Twitter or now I get to call X,
you know, that can really leave you.
I really use social media as more of a broadcast thing,
so if I see something that I like on social media,
I want other people to know about it that normally would not.
So as an example, I have 4,000 followers or whatever it is,
and the thing is I want them, maybe not,
maybe they're not as educated or whatever
about some of the stuff that I want them to see
an FDR clip, or I want them to see something
that Joe Biden has done that's positive
rather than all of the negative that's out there.
Well, so LA Tom, and here's it, I love that on Twitter,
LA Tom does repost, retweet, or re-ex,
all the busted pencil stuff.
LA Tom, if you want, hold on there,
we keep you through the break
and let you come back and finish your thoughts.
Our guest, Dr. Joe Ann Orbeck,
more after the break.
Oh, we love it here, busted pencils.
Holy, let it education talk.
Always dancing, educated educators talking education.
The number 844-967-2789.
Our guest, Dr. Joe Ann Orbeck,
I'm hopefully she's going to get back on the line, Joe Ann.
Come on, sign back on, we're out there.
But LA Tom, LA Tom, you had some great things
and on you, LA Tom still on the line, right?
Tom, tell us about your, you know, more social media,
you know, you like TikTok,
but you use other social media more like it's kind of like
an abroad casting.
I would say this is a great thing.
It's a great thing.
It's a great thing.
It's kind of like an abroad casting.
I would say that that's probably the best way.
I would say my, particularly, yeah,
the, the extra Twitter is usually more than anything
I'm trying to communicate something out there.
I occasionally will find myself reading.
And as you said, though, for some reason,
a lot of the reading that ends up my way is stuff
that I did once, it wants to offend me.
Yeah, it used to, it used to not be that, yeah,
it used to not be that way.
But when what's Elon took over, you know,
it seems like that's changed a lot in terms of what they're trying
to do to get your angry rather than, you know,
what would it used to be?
I just think that, you know,
I'm one of those people that don't believe in sports betting.
I'm one of those people that,
I mean, people can do whatever they want.
The, the, the, the praise or the,
putting it up on a pedestal,
I think it's really, really crazy because there really is no
solution to addiction to gambling,
like there are even other types of addiction.
And also, I don't even like fantasy football.
I think fantasy football basically made,
you know, people that never coached football or people that thought,
you know, the owners wanted to make it,
they could basically take over and make these people feel like they were
important to the game that never thought they were.
Um, that, you know, they can pick their football player that way or
whatever it is.
And I, I think it takes away from the camaraderie of an actual team,
like I'm a Green Bay Packer fan, always have been,
always will be.
And the thing is, I, I don't look at just players doing this or doing that
because then you lose some of that loyalty,
I think that's the thing to the team.
That's just my connection.
I hear you talk, I say this,
I know in my, my family, you know,
between my son and my, my, you know,
cousins, brother and laws and stuff,
we have a fantasy football league.
And I'm probably the most annoying one on there because I make my
picks on that day that you make the picks.
And then about the third weekend,
people are like, you know,
like five of your players aren't playing this week.
And like, oh, really?
Well, don't you watch?
Like, no, I don't.
So I, yeah, I don't get into the fantasy.
I hear what you're talking about there.
But, you know,
Tom, pick it up.
I always do.
No, no, you know what?
I, my problem is with when it comes to sports like that and stuff,
like I like to go to a good hockey game or something like that.
I even watching on TV.
It doesn't really keep my attention.
You know, so, so that part.
And then when, when Joanne was talking,
and hopefully Joanne's going to get back out of the Joe,
and signed back in so we can get you back on awesome,
awesome guest host that you're coming on tonight.
But I'm, you know, Joanne is thinking about this,
the potential though, Tom, I wonder,
just get your thoughts since you're on the line here.
Do you see the potential of,
because this is where we want to go with Joanne,
that there are now, you know,
you know, the sports betting,
getting in with colleges,
particularly wrapping themselves into some universities,
to the point that you start going,
it's like, really do we want,
and whoever sports betting app there is,
do you want to go to a college where a sports betting app
is somehow wrapped up?
And doesn't that just have a whole lot of what else is going on?
And, and who's making money?
And the fact, I can just imagine that some students on campus,
because of, I don't know, you know,
like I, when I used to go past the student union
and get a, get a free t-shirt or something like that,
people are going to get the,
what the free five dollars of betting app
or something like that, college students.
And, and it just sets that in mode.
I'm so, this concerns me a lot.
More so than I remember years ago when people,
you know, we don't want Pepsi,
Coke machines on the campus.
Okay, well, then we'll get rid of those
and we'll put draft kings.
Tom, any thoughts on betting,
draft kings, sports apps?
I, I, I mean, honestly, first off,
I, I still believe that betting is illegal.
I don't know, we have people to bet on games
and got kicked out of the league,
but we got players every week.
I mean, they are,
they're putting this up on a higher level
in terms of all the commercials and the celebrities
that are, you know, pushing the betting
and I don't understand how that can be
when it really is as a player.
I thought that was a really negative thing.
I guess that's what he wrote.
It was, you know, you didn't go anywhere.
So, I don't know what's happening with a culture in that way,
except for, you know, I guess,
so I'm waiting on it.
Yeah.
LA Tom, thanks for the call.
Always appreciate you listening.
If you want to give us call 844-967-2789-844-967-2789,
teachers out there,
cell phones, social media addiction,
gambling, it's all here.
Our guest, Dr. Joe Ann Oravek,
well, we got our back producer on you, right?
Joe Ann, you're, you're on the phone now, though.
I can't see you the way I like to,
but Joe Ann, thank you for coming back.
So, Joe Ann, give us a little bit now
with a primer.
Help us understand.
Maybe you heard me making a disastrous mess
of sports betting colleges,
how they're getting tied up with each other.
And what do we need to, what do we,
what do we need to worry about?
Joe Ann.
Uh-oh.
Okay.
Okay.
I've got her on and up,
but we can't hear her.
So, Joe Ann, if you can hear me,
uh, try to hang up and call back in my friend.
I do not know why we are not able to hear you.
Uh, well, we'll get her back.
Hey, but you can jump in 844-967-2789-844-967-2789.
On the gambling, though,
this is where, and on you,
I can, you know, kind of chat with you.
I have to say, I go to the casino sometime,
my dad loves to go to the casino in, you know,
in Pittsburgh where he lives.
And, and I like to go,
I just, I don't win.
And I've gotten to the point where,
I don't know, like people are like,
like, don't go to the, don't go to the casino with Tim
because, you know, he'd never win.
It's like, like, I carried some kind of universal energy
into, uh, into there.
And I'm not allowed to win,
and so people go away.
So because of that, though, it has made me,
you know, after I put my first 20 in
and it disappears,
I'm pretty much going like,
yeah, I'm done.
I'm done with this.
Yeah.
Am I lucky?
Are you lucky that you know?
I mean, I'm lucky.
I'm lucky.
Yeah, I'm, you know, I'm sitting there going,
hey, I'm not lucky at winning,
but I'm lucky to go, you know what?
I see where this is had,
and, and I'm done.
Well, to some extent,
it almost sounds like what if you were the kind of person
who, you know, you could have a beer,
and you just never felt a buzz.
It's like, well, I don't want to drink this bread water
at a certain point.
This is boring.
I don't want to pull the lever
on the lose machine over and over again.
Not having a good time with, uh,
an addictive thing could potentially save you,
I think, or keep you safe from,
oh, no, I enjoyed it too much,
and I fell apart, but I don't know.
I think, I think maybe you're just so unlucky
that you are lucky, Tim.
Yeah, I know people are like, you know,
it's like, you're always going to lose
because you go in there with the mind frame
that you're going to lose,
and part of me are always argues
and going, my mind frame has nothing to do
with the electronics of that machine.
That's right.
That machine is not connected to my universal energy.
It does not know if I'm giving out the win vibe
or the lose vibe.
But boy, it is something though,
because over the breaks,
my wife,
she did the whole,
I'm going down with positive energy.
Universe is coming with me.
A couple hundred bucks later in her favor.
I got to hang out with your wife.
I'm going to Vegas at the end of this month.
So you've got the bad energy.
I have to stay away from it.
Yeah.
Your wife has the good energy.
I need to take to the blackjack table.
Good. Good.
It's it's out there.
844-967-279.
It's busted pencils.
Fully-led education talk.
Educated educators.
Talking education.
Blue collar scholars.
Social media.
Classrooms.
Addiction.
Cell phones.
I think you know what we're waiting
if you get your hand back on.
The thing that I find is,
though, this overreg,
we'll say overregulation.
But the passion of which you see some schools,
some teachers,
even some school districts,
creating no absolutely no cell phone use policies.
And I was joking with Joanne in the first,
in the very first time about going,
if it's an addiction,
though, like truly an addiction,
man, if you are saying to those kids
who are some of them who,
quote, are hardcore addicted on you,
but you can't have your addiction.
What kind of behavioral issues?
And if you're an administrator or a school board out there
who's been messing around with this policy
and trying to ban cell phones,
we want to know,
is there any kind of like, you know,
addictive, you know,
the whole withdrawal?
Let's be honest.
You know, are the kids going through withdrawal?
And so they can't learn anyway either.
So we know they can't learn
when they're on their phones
and they're not listening.
But if they're addicted to their phones,
they can't get to it
and they're going through withdrawal.
How can they learn there?
I mean, it could sound almost like I'm making a joke,
but I'm really wondering about that on you.
I think you're totally right.
I think when you say withdrawal
and folks think of,
hold on here.
There she is.
All right.
People think of physical symptoms.
Yeah, go ahead Joanne.
We went entirely down.
Everything.
That was my guess.
That was my guess.
But there we are.
What I was saying, you know,
you talk about withdrawal with symptoms,
you may think of someone shaking and sweating
because they've the substance
they're addicted to has been taken away.
But the being a kid,
remember being a kid
and everything felt like the end of the world.
Like to me,
not having at that age,
not having the phone,
you're just thinking about,
oh my gosh,
I missed that text from my friend
who doesn't go to this school
and that's our only way of communicating
because we're physically distanced.
Their mind is elsewhere.
Now, we got to give them coping skills.
It's not hand them the phone back.
But I do agree that they're in withdrawal.
Their mind is elsewhere in a similar way
to someone who's been taken away
from something that
it might not be healthy for them.
But they've used it so much now
that they need it to feel safe.
Their mind is not going to be in the classroom.
That's my thought at least.
All right, Joanne.
You're back.
Joanne, you don't know if you heard us jabbering
about, you know, the addiction and stuff.
But no, no.
We were frantically trying to figure out
why AT&T Uverse went down.
I mean, just completely went blank.
Thank you so much for waiting.
But here's an example of how helpless we are
when technology gives out on us.
We're linked to technology so intensely.
And one of the topics we were about to talk about
was how colleges are getting money
to work with organizations like FANDUAL
and draft kings and all of that.
And at least to allow them on campus
to give them those very, very few
and far between outlets, you know,
in student unions and whatever activities
that students come up with.
Of course, we've got a lot of other ways
colleges could support good
aspects of gaming and all of that.
I know that UW LaCrosse has an eSports complex
that it's put together quite recently last year
to where people do eSports research.
It's very easy to do eSports research
because so much data are collected
through the various programs.
And, you know, you can do all sorts of experiments
and all of that.
And students can learn all sorts of techniques
for future endeavors.
Joanne, you know what?
I'm not going to dismiss you.
I'm going to keep you.
I wanted to go.
But we got Peter from Chicago on the line.
Yeah, Peter, what's happening, Peter?
Hey, guys, just to me,
I normally listen to the earlier shows
but they'd be from calling in
because I'm a Republican and they cannot compete against the facts.
Okay.
The fact that one of the facts,
I mean, you gentlemen said that Donald Trump
is an insurrectionist.
Well, it'd be nice if he was brought up on charges
in a court tried and convicted.
Peter, Peter, you know,
yeah, thank you.
I won't get that.
Joanne, I'm going to hold you back, but Peter,
this is Busted Pencil's fully-led education talk.
Not Donald Trump insurrection types of things.
This is the education talk show
that has come around from nowhere else other than here.
Civic media.
And then back after the break.
All right.
You know, you can hear that.
And that's some shredding on that guitar.
So, the thing is that the
education talk, education, education, education,
eight, four, four, four, nine, six, seven, two, seven, eight, nine,
Peter and Chicago,
if you want to talk education though, man, dude, call back.
You know, if you want to talk about sports, gambling,
college campuses,
because we got an awesome guest tonight.
Dr. Joanne Oravek.
You wanted to get, though, on this whole thing,
and I probably made a mess of it when you were trying to
get back onto the show.
Explain.
So, I'm college ex.
Why do I, why do I even want
fandal or sports betting on my campus?
What, what do I get from them coming on campus?
Well, there's actual payments that some of the
schools are getting and we're talking Michigan state.
We're talking University of Denver.
We're talking about a couple other Colorado schools,
Louisiana State University, various schools,
some of which have, have, have slacked off in their
financial relationships with these organizations.
But one can think of these devices as keeping people on campus.
I know that we've got these dorms in most campus settings
that have a lot of people who need something to do with nights
and sometimes the recreationists and all that great on the weekend.
If students are playing with their games,
they are entertained.
And unfortunately, some of them are gambling away their tuition
money and know what no school wants to be involved in that.
But very, very few schools.
I have, I'm still looking for one that has a real program
or something during orientation on the dangers of gambling.
Yeah.
Okay.
And that's what I'm worried about because it's,
it's something that's financially so.
Well, it's acceptable for many schools.
Let me just go very quickly.
I'm not a lawyer.
But in 2018, Supreme Court made sports betting legal,
but allowed the states to, to do their own legislative
footprint in those areas.
Right.
And Wisconsin is one of the states that is not as open as other states.
Michigan's very open.
Illinois, Indiana.
Minnesota is even more restrictive than we are.
We've got sports book betting in our.
United casinos, a couple of other other casinos.
But it is, but this whole idea of the
Fandual and the draft kings and all of that is not
legislated fully.
Okay.
And so it's still legal to bet.
And so the schools can, can very well have a party along those lines.
I mean, they don't have to worry about.
The cops coming in.
I remember the early days of Napster when students were,
were ripping off songs.
And of course, we, we got, we were getting season to assist letters from,
from, uh,
from, uh, from a,
Metallica.
Metallica went after Napster big time.
Metallica, you mean rock and roll bail.
Busted pencils fully let it.
Education talk, eight, four, four, nine, six, seven, two, seven, eight, nine.
Okay, John, you know, lots going on though.
What about, though, you've made mention of this in,
and we need education, you know, about gambling.
The, the, the addictive parts of gambling, the fact that,
that, that this could be really a problem.
Colleges, you really shouldn't be looking at getting money from these,
although there's, could be the other thing going,
why do colleges need all this extra money?
There's a whole lot mixed up in there.
Positive, though, you have made mention a couple times.
There is something I'm holding up for anybody who's watching on the video feed.
I'm holding up my cell phone.
There, there is something positive in this thing in my hand that you're saying,
particularly from a teaching and learning standpoint.
Tell us what it is, Joanne.
Well, we can learn a lot about ourselves through whatever devices that we utilize.
When we started playing with chat box,
I know that some people were addicted,
addicted to chat box because they elicited so much about ourselves.
We, they reflected so much about who we are,
our conversational patterns and all of that.
And some people I know right now are even addicted a bit to chat GPT.
And in all that interaction, again, we, we become more fully human.
We, we, we learn again about our need for agency and self-efficacy and all of that,
that we gain from these experiences with risk.
So, again, just as in the past, people did wargaming,
but they did it with, you know, pads of, of, of paper and, and check boxes and all of that.
People did all sorts of interactions with, well,
we still use board, board games in many ways.
And with, with competition, if the competition's involved,
and supposedly it is involved with most of these daily fantasy sports
of a program such as Fandool and draft kings and all of that,
all of that competition teaches us about our own skills and relation to other people.
And now I would prefer with my MBA background and all that, my PhD,
I would prefer people would be doing stock market betting,
although that's, you know, you can lose your shirt on the market that, that as well,
but it would be a type of skill that people would be learning,
so they could succeed in life at other levels.
And there are a lot of other ways that we can, we can gain from interaction with,
with gambling, with, with gambling of all, all sorts,
guessing the future, predicting the future and all that.
We predict the future every time we buy gas, you know,
a little gas goes out or up and all that.
But again, as educators,
we're good at harnessing all that magic.
We're good at making assignments that have risk and prediction built in and all that.
So again, throwing our students to the wolves and say,
that's okay for you to use that device, which is designed to take money out of your pocket.
And as much money as people can,
and legally to some extent,
the only states that completely outlaw gambling are Utah and Hawaii.
Okay, everybody else has a, you know, either they're not looking at it or there are green lights.
So again, what we need to do as educators is to harness the magic.
And there is a lot of magic there.
And students throughout their lives will be using all sorts of complicated programs
as they, you know, I word, we design bosswear, we design programs with the organization.
It's currently working in spirit corporation that allow us to be better people,
citizens, corporate citizens as we work in organizations, you know, that.
Dr. Joanne Orvek, I got to have you back though, because I,
because you, but you just touched on AI, Dr. Joanne Orvek,
busted pencils large big time.
Appreciate you listening.
See you all tomorrow night.
Busted pencils fully landed.