This is Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk.
Here are your hosts, Dr. Tim Slecker and Dr. Johnny Lupinacci, educated educators talking
education.
Welcome Monday Night Busted Pencils, fully-ledded education talk, educated educators talking
education.
The number 844-967-2789, 844-967-2789, Johnny, it's Monday.
It's Busted Pencils.
Five days a week, Onja's back in the studio.
We are so happy to see Onja.
I'm happy to see you guys.
Oh my, a little bit of a bumpy road last week.
Well, it wasn't, anyway, we, you know, cars or we need them.
Those other people think they want them though.
Maybe that's what we could put that out there.
But we are so happy to have Onja back.
Onja five days a week, we are, you know, we did it last week.
We're here a little bit of a bump, as we said, but we are so excited to bring, you know,
the roots, the foundation of democracy, public education, every day, five days a week
now for all of you out there that this is the show where you can say, wait, I can talk
about Friday and at football, I can talk about the prom and I can make a connection to
democracy.
Yes, you can.
All the time.
In fact, if you want to do that 844-967-2789, Johnny Lupinacci weekend, how are you, my
friend?
I mean, I'm good.
It's Monday.
Here we go.
You know, it's February.
Groundhog saw, like, didn't see a shadow stayed hanging out and it's like, you know, springs
just around the corner and yeah, we're back in the saddle and there's so much going
on right now in terms of where we're at in schools and what kinds of conversations folks
are having in their community about, you know, about schools and education and, you know,
it's a good time of year because there's a lot of decisions that are made this time of
year that have huge impacts for the upcoming school year and so, yeah, well, and, you
know, and say our guest tonight and last week, you know, at Carol, it was, it was a crazy
week.
So we are glad you are back though this week, a little under the weather last week, Carol
Burris, executive director of the network for public education.
If you've listened to the show, she's been on the show, she's been on the podcast, but
we are so happy, Carol, because we were thinking, you know, busted pencils five days a week
now, network for public education, there's a partnership here in the in the future that
we can see Carol Burris in the network for public education as a regular addition to
the show in some way, shape or form, Carol, you still feeling that?
I'm still feeling it, too.
I guess the word out, however we can, we'll get the word out.
And so, you know, we've had some conversations too locally because, you know, the show comes
out of the Madison, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, all through actually all over the state of Wisconsin
now, the Wisconsin public education network.
And I know you've had some, with Heather Dubois-Bernayne, they're, they're founder, we've had
some conversations there.
And boy, we could see some real great possibilities of the network, the national network for public
education, the Wisconsin public education network, boy, what a great powerhouse.
And we could really bring some incredibly strong information.
So we said, you know, the show is about public education, but mostly it's about democracy,
because you say there is no democracy without public education in this country.
Carol though, in case anybody is just the first night they're tuning in on a Monday going,
usually listening on Tuesday, I didn't even know busted pencils was on on Monday.
We have some, you know, people out there who are listening, saying, network for public
education.
Carol, tell us about the network, give us some background story.
What do you do?
And where'd you come from?
Where are you going?
Well, the network for public education started about 10 years ago, a little bit more than
10 years ago now.
And it was founded by Diane Ravitch, education historian, who had been a conservative,
who was right in there with charter schools and vouchers and testing.
And then she just started looking at the data, she started looking at the numbers.
And she said, this stuff isn't working.
And so she went to, you know, the Fordham foundation and all the other people that she
was working with.
And she told them that their attitude was like, well, this is what we do.
We don't care.
And so Diane just bucked the tide.
She started speaking, she started writing.
She wrote a fabulous book, best selling book, death in life of the great American school
system that just rocked the world and rocked teachers.
And shortly after that, she founded the network with Anthony Cody, a teacher from Oakland,
California.
And it's been going ever since and I was a high school principal in New York.
I was like thoroughly disgusted with the idea of evaluating teachers by test scores and
the common core and charter schools and all the other nonsense.
And so I wound up retiring at 62.
And I just had to get, you know, I told the teachers that I can't do this anymore.
I can't do this to you.
I can't do this to kids.
And when I retired, Diane said, well, how about being the executive director?
That's just a little job.
Yeah, how about not retiring?
Yeah.
And, you know, I've been working really hard ever since.
It's not as stressful as being a high school principal.
Nothing as stressful as that.
But we're at a really difficult point in this country.
And after Betsy DeVos was appointed secretary of education or organization, really took off,
we had had a mailing list of about 70,000, two months after Betsy.
It was 350,000.
Wow.
And we've, you know, we've maintained those numbers and keep on adding on.
And while some of the issues that were really on people's minds at that time have kind
of slipped away, where our big focus now is the one piece of race to the top that never
went away.
And that is charter schools and now being joined by vouchers and the privatization of public
education that has been hijacked by the right and it has now become a force to destroy public
education in this country.
You know, and when you say that, I know this sometimes, you know, somebody's out there
saying, really destroy public education, aren't they just criticizing it, offering different
visions?
And it's a, you know, the answer is no.
And I want to just go backwards in time, though, Carol, when you say, I mean, 10 years
ago, the network came to being, you know, two or three years before that, we were moving
in the opt-out movement to push against this to save our schools march happened in Washington
DC.
You know, the network came out of this and I've had some conversations with Diane, another
great guest on our show to Matt Damon's mom, Nancy, Dr. Nancy Carlson page, you know,
we've been reflecting on this saying, you know, 10 years ago, were we naive to think
that doing the active in the action and the activist work was going to make a difference
because as you pointed out, it's worse now than it's ever been.
Would you agree with that assessment?
Yeah, I would.
I mean, it definitely is and it's, it's the money.
I think a real turning point was when the Koch brothers got into the game.
They had never meddled in public education.
They never was never on their radar and I'd say probably it was about 78 years back.
I remember reading how all of a sudden they were condensed that public education was
this issue and their money combined with Betsy DeVos, combined with Alice Walton, combined
with, you know, just to read Hastings, just a host of billionaires, some who are sort of
neo-liberal, quasi-democrats and others that are just hard-line right-wingers and libertarians,
they've taken over and, you know, it's interesting, you know, it all goes back, we have it a report
come out pretty soon on grading the states and we do sort of a retrospective in it.
Like, where did this movement come from?
And, you know, it came from segregation, right, that idea of school choice, after Brown
V-Board, but at the same time, you had Milton Friedman in the background, talking about
this, talking about how people should have money, how to just go and shop for a school,
right, that there should be vouchers.
And even we, we quote a conversation that he had, you know, even to the point where his
ultimate goal was to have parents pay for K-12 education, kind of that back to the future
vision from the 1700s, right, you know, the way they pay for college, right, and he says
in this interview, he goes, and, you know, and then there'll be something for the indichin,
right, we know what there's going to be, it's going to be an online school, a crap online
school.
Yeah, all of that, I mean, you'd say the layout, and going back to saying, you know, yes,
this is an attack on democracy, people are like, go public, so it's like, yeah, but recognize
what we're talking about here, this attack, now, you know, even way beyond, you know, we've
traced it, as you said, Carol's segregation, you know, there are different marking points
to say, when did the war on public education start?
You know, 1983, a nation at risk, no child left behind, race to the top, all, you know,
one movement or another, though really forcing and focusing and really trying to eliminate,
and put this out there, eliminate public schools, and as you're pointing out now, Carol,
you know, the voucher movement, the privatization, the charter movement, those are some of the
biggest issues now that keep really coming up, and so when you're out, you know, listening,
this is where we want to bring the show tonight, really particularly with, with, with Carol,
and, and what people are like, how come you're not letting Johnny talk tonight to him?
I will, I will, everybody relax, come on, we'll let him, we'll let him jump in there,
but it's to recognize these things that we hear so much about, and we say, my neighbor
hears about vouchers, my neighbor hears about charters, but, but they continued and maybe not
have the opportunity to say, but, but what's wrong with them? And, you know, and so that's really
what we're talking about here to say, well, first of all, let's start with this point.
What's wrong with them is is that they're, they're taking money and stripping away the foundation
of democracy, which is our public schools, and recognizing that. I was actually reading
some old stuff that I had written 12, 13 years ago, blogging, and was thinking about this,
because I remember trying to make the case against, it was at the time, it was voucher money.
And I remember arguing with a lot of people who were saying, well, but, but Tim, I am so tired
of paying tax dollars for your kids to go to school. And I'm finally ranked, you know, we'll put
this up there as we're coming up on, you know, we get ready. And I want to come back to this,
but Carol, this is not a way to save taxpayers money when you get vouchers and charters,
because the money is still going to go out there. There's no discounted rate because vouchers
happen. If you're paying taxes, you're paying taxes, vouchers, more when we get back.
Oh, not that kind of a magazine, but the pencils fully let it education talk, educated
educators, talking education, or as we've introduced to blue collar scholars coming at this
Carol Burris, executive director for the network for public education, our guests tonight,
we did a 10 year remember when the network was formed. And here we are 10 years later,
fighting more fiercely than ever before we, you know, came back into this. Carol, I had said,
you know, I remember 12 years ago trying to make the point to some of the people that were saying,
Tim, I just don't want to pay like my taxes are being used to pay for your kids to go to school.
And I don't think that should happen. That's why I'm in favor of vouchers. And I looked at them,
and I said, well, what do you think that if we get vouchers? And I was in Pennsylvania at the time,
if we get vouchers in Pennsylvania, you don't pay taxes anymore. And they looked at me and went,
well, yeah, that's why we think it's a good idea. And I went, there's nothing about vouchers
and charters and public money that reduces your tax burden. In fact, you continuing to pay taxes
is the reality that says, you just don't get to say where your taxes go anymore. And you get that
ability to move in there. I do want to jump though. Carol, we're going to do into this right away
because caller Jack from Merrimack Jack, welcome to busted pencils. And you are talking with the
network for public education's Carol Burris. Jack, what's happening?
Jack. Uh oh, we should be able to hear him. I don't do not hear Jack.
We'll see if we can get it figured out when we'll come back. Yeah, we'll see. We've got a chat
from Jim and Apple 10 30 years ago when one of my children was in a private religious school before
vouchers, all the prokyl administrators I talked to were opposed to vouchers because they were afraid
that if they took public money, they'd be forced to meet public requirements. There's so much in
that statement from that from Jim from Apple 10. Carol, though, let's make vouchers charter schools,
how are they related? Well, charter schools are different than vouchers and that charter schools are
at least on the books public schools. However, there are public schools that do not have to follow
by and large the same rules as your neighborhood public school and they're run by a private board.
But they cannot discriminate, for example, based on religion.
Vouchers on the other hand, that's money that are that are going to private schools.
And they can discriminate anyway they want to. They can discriminate on religion. They
by religion, they can discriminate by LGBT status. They can discriminate based on test scores.
And the thing is, you know, what you were talking about before when you said about taxpayers,
the burden, here's something that's really remarkable that I just came across. I did this retrospective
with NCES data and I said, well, what proportion of kids were in private schools back in 1999 as
compared to now, right? Because you have all of these voucher programs that have sprung up.
So you would think because the only way you can possibly save money with vouchers is if kids leave
public schools and go to private schools and the voucher is less, right? That's the only way taxpayers
can save money. Otherwise, everything else is you're adding to burden. Well, guess what I found?
In 1999, over 11% of the kids in this nation were in private schools. In 2021, the number dropped,
the number dropped to 9 points, something percent, almost 10%. And I looked at Wisconsin.
And I did because Wisconsin, as you know, had the oldest voucher program going, right?
I'm okay. Your numbers have barely budged. That means all of the money that you have spent
is going into the pockets of people who would have sent their kid to private school anyway.
Now, maybe they would have gotten a subsidy from the church. Maybe they would have gotten a private
scholarship. But the bottom line is you don't have more kids going to private school. So that
means you've taken whatever the tax burden was. And now you've added another layer on top.
Yeah, so there's no tax break. Hey, we're going to try Jack, Jack, your back, Jack is back, Jack
what's happening? Yeah, the statistics I've read basically said that somewhere over 50% of the
students who are now in private school would have actually were in private schools previous to
voucher or school choice programs, whatever you want to call them. And so basically what we have
here is a system that is giving public funds as welfare to those people who have already,
they've already got enough money to put their kid in private school anyway. Now, you know my
background. I mean, I've taught in all kinds of school. I taught for over 40 years before I
retired. And I found out that basically school choices exactly that the school gets to choose.
They can choose as was just pointed out, they can choose who they want based on test scores,
attendance, other whatever preferences they particularly want. And there is essentially no regulation
on that. Public schools on the other hand, public schools on the other hand, as you know, have to take
everyone and they have to teach everyone and do a decent job. And it's basically, first of all,
giving welfare to people that probably don't need it because their student was in private school
anyway. And secondly, it's robbing Peter to pay Paul. And a perfect example of this is what
just happened in the last so-called budget of Wisconsin. $3,000 per student was given to private
school voucher programs. And the public schools were allowed to add $312, I think it was,
per student for their fundraising. But here's the catch. The $3,000 came out of our Wisconsin
state budget surplus that we had of some $7 billion. The $312, oh, you want that for your school?
Fine, vote yourself and increase in your property taxes because that's the only thing that was
allowed. That's... Jack, you're throwing so much there. I'm watching Carol because we get to see
Carol and see Johnny. Carol, lots of not-head nodding there to Jack's comments there.
Jack and Carol, I think you'll back me up. It's about... The last I heard in Wisconsin was 75%
of kids receiving vouchers were already in private schools. That was the last number I had from
Ruth Conif at the Wisconsin Examiner. Carol? Yeah, that's how it's about right. But you know,
even with that other 25%, that's not necessarily a kid transferring in. That's kids, for example,
starting high school in a private school. Who would have started high school in a private school,
anyway? Or a kid in a gardener's going in? You know, we haven't... That's what shocked me when I
looked at the numbers this week. The needle hasn't budged, right? You would expect that if this money
is actually pulling kids out of public schools, and this is the proportion of kids,
that numbers would go up. They're not going up. It's well... When... Yeah, for the well... Hold on,
make sure you come back though, because we are going to get at the charter schools in the right wing
turn. Busted pencils, Carol Burst, more when we get back.
Ah, welcome back. Busted pencils fully let it education talk. Oh, always coming here for the
music too. Of course, the education talk, educated educators talking, education. 844-967-2789,
Jack was on the phone last... We were, you know, really happy to hear from Jack. Carol, though,
making the move, though, the charters. I think we got this here, but, you know, the report here that,
you know, we'd put out there. I'm just going to read from a sharp turn right, a new breed of
charter schools delivers the conservative agenda. This is quote, American taxpayers across the
country are funding the recent explosion of growth in far-right Christian nationalist charter
schools, including those affiliated with Hillsdale College, and this is according to the new report,
a sharp turn right, a new breed of charter schools delivering the conservative agenda.
Carol, why is this, you know, like explain the distress level that people who might not know about
why do we care the charter schools are moving right? Well, you know, it's taking your tax dollars
and it's using them to isolate kids in these schools where they are not going to encounter
other kids who think differently than they, right? And that's really worrisome. They're using
these charter schools as breeding grounds of like Christian nationalism. Hillsdale College is,
I think probably most of your listeners are familiar with it. It's extraordinarily
right-wing. It prides itself on taking no money from the federal government, though it's charter
schools, though. They don't have a problem with that. They help create Donald Trump's 1776
curriculum. They're very close with Ron DeSantis. The president of Hillsdale was the guy who said
in Tennessee, the teachers come from the dumbest parts of the dumbest colleges in America,
right? And that anybody can teach. That's another one of his quotes. So what happened was they
decided to start these charter schools through something called the Barney Charter School initiative.
And it's, you know, it's not that purple dinosaur, Barney, that they're talking about, that
lovable little guy. This is billionaire Barney, Steve Barney, another right-winger.
And what they do is say there's a community in Wisconsin that's very conservative. In fact,
I know you have at least one Hillsdale charter school in Wisconsin. And they get together and they
get in touch with Hillsdale. Hillsdale gives them the curriculum, trains the teachers, you know,
helps them get going. And then they agree to teach, you know, kindergarteners Latin.
And all of the other other stuff that they do, right-wing history, social studies, curricula.
And these schools are spreading. There was one recently, one that's opening up in South Carolina,
board members who are all moms for liberty. They recently held for the moms for liberty. They
brought this principle of the New Hillsdale charter, as well as an organization called Gays Against
Groomers to come and speak, which is a hate group. And these are not Gays against dog groomers,
right? I think this is like, this is this crazy right-wing group whose acronym is Gag.
They actually use that. And these are the people that are going to be educating kids. There's one in
Ohio we've been following. And the report has a cross on the top of the building. They have it in
an old Catholic school, pictures of the Madonna, on the walls, a crucifix up in the gym.
You know, it does everything it can on its website to make it look like it's a free private school.
Doesn't even say it's a charter school. Now you say, well, all right, they're private schools,
that do that. This is completely paid for by taxpayers. And to make matters worse, and I wrote about
this in the Washington Post, the federal government gave it a two million dollar grant to expand
federal charter schools program, two million dollars. And you read the application and they talk
about how they want to help underserved children in this Cincinnati area. Well, unless you consider
white nationalist kids to be underserved, that is not who they're helping. There's, I mean,
what the the kids in the school, we went, we looked at the demographics. It's 2% black
and Cincinnati that has a school population that is over 60% black in the public schools.
It's 12% for your reduced price lunch. Cincinnati, it's 80%. It is a segregation academy. It is a
place, you know, for parents to send their kids who don't want their kids with those kids. And
these kinds of charter schools are springing up all over the country. Wow, lots and lots there.
L.A. Tom is on the line. L.A. Tom, what's happening, my friend?
Hey, guys, I'm happy Monday. Thank you. First, we the people ultimately are the government,
and we must never forget that. I'll say what we need to do. We need to really start making a push
for good government. And good government in terms of what it is that, so we can say
that our schools are actually good government knowledge centers. I mean, they basically have
destroyed the word public schools. They basically have destroyed the one thing Republicans do very,
very well is messaging. And we all know that. But they choice school. I mean, they always come up
with the word just like the right to work. No, it's the right to work for less. You know,
the blue skies initiatives and you end up with more pollution than ever. But we need to do
something where we are taking something that we the people pay for as a collective. And
that's government. And we need to start, you know, instead of hiding behind the word government
as a bad thing, we should be saying government is a good thing and it's we the people.
And if you're going to sit there and talk bad about government, whether you're on the democratic
side of the Republican side, then you don't get the hell out of government. You don't belong there.
L.A. Tom bringing Johnny, I see Johnny like, oh man, L.A. Tom's hitting it hard.
Well, and I thanks Tom for the call. I always appreciate it. And Carol, thanks for the time
tonight as well. This is an important conversation that has so many complexities to it.
But Tom's call brings us back to that important aspect that education ought to be and arguably is
vital to a healthy, strong government of any type. Right. And so if that type of democracy,
then that's committed to a diversity of ideas. It's not even necessarily bipartisan. That's not
liberal or conservative. That's all that's committed to a diversity, a complex mess of ideas
based on what? Well, based on hopefully scientific consensus on some things like here are some
important skills in mathematics, here are some important skills in reading literacies, here are some,
you know, traditional kinds of things like reading, writing, language acquisition, these skills,
also how we make decisions together, all of these things. Right. And so schools play a vital role
in that. Well, all the things we've talked about here tonight kind of touched on different aspects
of ways in which government was utilized. Right. As a mechanism to sort of break up the idea of
having a common public school system. Right. And it sort of so we really back up and we mentioned
all these policies, nations at risks and talked about charters and privates and things. And before
there were even public schools, there was essentially public education and private education. It goes
back before we even call them public schools. Right. And so we can even bring it back into more
modern history and say we've had private education and public education coexisting in most places.
And this is pre this utilizing government to really dismantle public education.
Did it hurt private education? I mean, the verdicts out there in some places maybe yes,
maybe no, did it help it? The verdicts out there maybe yes, maybe no. But there's always been
sort of a choice. If you're in the break it down simple, if you're elite and you've got money,
you want to send your kid to a private institution, you have always been able to do that and you will
continue to be able to do that. And by and large, that's most of people that attend private schools
aside from scholarships and other kinds of maybe some fundings that exist out there.
So when we get into the whole charter thing for listeners to think about, it's hard to just say it's
it's charter schools versus public schools because Carol brought this up. Charters are kind of a
function of public schools of really what we're needing to have discussions around and information
important information like Carol sharing with us tonight is the discussion around how have we lost
kind of the direction and the support for public education in support of a democracy.
This is a public school issue and charters are every way kind of complicating it and making it
really messy within it. But this is an important public issue because there are different types
of charters and there are different things that opened up right that opened things up to this
possibility of all of a sudden something that says as mainstay is say utilities before they were
privatized and they were sort of community municipalities or like fire departments and these kinds
of things that we rely on our governments so that we can have a good life in our community. Public
education was part of that. It was a mainstay. Was it great everywhere? No, but the mechanism
and the governance was in place to kind of have that discussion of how do we improve it.
But the movement we're talking about in charters a part of it is a specific and intentional
effort to remove that from government involvement and to create competition sort of to approach
education as though it was like McDonald's or Wendy's or Burger King to say hey we want
competition in schools. Schools should compete for you parents as customers right for your business
and that model maybe arguably could work if we're talking about like where you buy your clothes
or where you go get food. I'll argue against that from my own politics but in general that's sort
of the free market right and whether you're a supporter of free market economics or not
they kind of get that the competition like hey if food is bad one place well then I should have
other options to go get food somewhere else right and that model simply does not work for public
education and democracy because what happened is you created a competition but there really isn't
resources to compete or you're just marketizing children you're making children in the education
the commodity putting parents often who don't have the financial means to navigate those choices
right which is some of the numbers Carol sharing like historically this this has been private schools
this has been like kind of who's going to which schools and what choice means but what
they did is impose a competition that isn't funded across the board everybody loses and it's
Carol. Jump in there Carol. Yeah I think he says in any he says it perfectly well I mean think
about this whole idea of competition and at a marketplace so let's say you're in a real small town
in Wisconsin all right and maybe it's maybe it's predominantly a fundamentalist Christian town
so you have a marketplace what's going to happen when people just shop right when they take their
public money and they and they just shop whatever public money they happen to give to you as a family
but the only school in your town could be a Christian fundamentalist school so what do you do if
you're not a Christian fundamentalist what do you do that right I love Starbucks but there's not
a Starbucks in every tale the market that's the way the market the market functions right you know
you got you dunked out you got you Starbucks and some places maybe you get you coffee in the gas
station and that's all there is because that's the way the marketplace works it's that part of
you say it delivers that Johnny. Well the material saying it's really important is that regardless
of where you are there should be a baseline so if the coffee is at the gas station at least you
know you have a baseline like there aren't really government regulations on whether or not
community should have coffee maybe there should be I mean that's sort of the more communist side
coming out of me but what historically in this democracy co-existing with free market economics
is this baseline that let's not mess with schools there is a baseline even if you do live in that
rural community you up
you
busted pencils we let it education talk educated educators talking education the number eight four
four nine six seven two seven eight nine where has the time gone Carol Burris executive director
network for public education talking about well first of all 10 years now the network's been out
they're advocating for public schools looking at charters looking at vouchers
Carol but you know we're gonna let you head off to the evening there because this is you know we
appreciate you taking the time with us looking forward to a continued network for public education
on busted pencils as a regular spot Carol though you you had mentioned though before you go there
you guys are working on something new though too right now and wanted to give you an opportunity
to just kind of let us know what's happening with the network when it's coming out where we
where we can find more information yeah well you can always find us at at our website which is
network for public education.org but what we're going to do is we're we have a 50 state actually
it's 51 because we put these saying it right so a report card grading each state on its commitment
to public education it's commitment to democratically governed schools have to tell you
Wisconsin doesn't do so great. I don't think it's enough this year but it's kind of close
spoiler but we look at a variety of factors we look at prioritization we look at homeschooling
and the laws that protect children or don't protect children around homeschooling we look at
financing education we look at teacher salaries we look at the laws around curriculum bands and
book bands and we rate each state it's pretty extensive we're really excited about that
and we're planning on releasing it during public school week which is the last week in February
I believe it starts February 26 and yeah you know that makes me think then so
end of February the network for public education when you guys release that we're going to have a
grand releasing on busted pencils that just makes perfect sense to me don't you think Carol?
I think it makes great sense I'd love to do it love to do it and I'll make sure you get it or
I'll see yeah give me the opportunity will Carol thank you so much for busting pencils with us
tonight and we look forward to that report we will catch you thank you Carol and be be careful out
there okay my pleasure bye bye Johnny so Johnny Lupinachi come on in there man and you you know
backwards come behind the scenes conversations lots of information tonight I mean there's a
lot of information tonight because the thing is is the charter school conversation is complicated
and I just and I mean there are a lot of ways in which we all land on the same page in terms of
saying public education is really important where and Carol brought it up where you are also matters
these these conversations are situational and contextual right there is a there is a likely
scenario where listeners are hearing this or they're talking or they're in education discussions
about where to send their kids which used to never be a thing you went to school where you're
commute like there was a important vested community connection you went to school based on where
you live that wasn't necessarily fair and Carol brought it up because there's all kinds of talk
about segregation and we know about redlining and we know about that rural poverty school in
poverty schools were just not funded the same way that middle class suburban schools or elite schools
were and not even that they were they that we could figure out a way to fund them equally they were
not equitable in fact we know lots of those schools function barely on a budget and that's not right
or fair so the right there were right conditions for not only a dismantling of public education as
sort of an institution but an argument for it because there were a lot of public schools that
were really bad and I know that's like not what we're supposed to say but we're not here saying
public schools is a concept is bad or that teachers in that public school were bad or that
principals ran the school into the ground there was a systematic way and it's unequal funding
over 10 decades decimated public schools in particularly in urban and rural communities
and this is really linked to how they were funded okay and we get into all of that but it was
funded primarily on on local taxation which we know was you know we know was kind of corrupt in a
sense and millages and in sponsorships and things like that and so it wasn't equitable or fair
that that aside there are places where listeners likely have children or in conversation with
neighbors of children where the public school option might not really be that great or safe
and that's a very real conversation that Tim I'm here to have and bring perspective to
in this I think it's important that we land on hey public schools are really important
but everywhere there's not an option where it's safe and that's sad and that's real
now that's why I said conditions were right and remember I'm a Detroit public school teacher right
and so well not a more non-professor but I still identify in those roots right and I'll tell you
as I saw and experienced a public school system really be put into the place of a condition at which
parents where became the ultimate victims actually children and their parents but adults in the
community were all of a sudden going to be saved with charter options a stem charter or a health
stem focused charter or a tech school that was a charter and I'm here to tell you Tim I know this
is like this is like the equivalent of swearing on this radio station right like I'm not gonna but
this is the equivalent there are plenty of cases in which these charter schools are much better
options than the public schools and that shouldn't be an argument against public education that
should be a clarion called like yo we've got to do this together better because when we can
keep everybody loses right and so this is why I want to get into the complexities of charter
and tonight it's like we learned a little bit more about what's happening to better invest
legislatively in decisions that support public schools but for our listeners out there like like
I mean we are experts on this Tim it's part of our job to read on this to talk about this and
to have been in the trenches of this for 25 some years of our career but you know I'm not an
expert as a parent I'm maybe 13 years into this right and I'm hearing and I get caught in the
crossfire of discussion of public charter private and all all I want is a good education for my kid
and so there's a lot to break down there's a ton there yeah we said you know there's a lot there
and it is complex but I think what you're coming back to Johnny here and with the show is just
that again back what we do public education and recognizing that if we had some really bad schools
it was a funding issue that got us there to begin with and so here we are it's busted pencils
it's fully let it education talk back tomorrow night teacher shortage special education